W Britains Scots Grey castings (1 Viewer)

[blaster]

Hi All,

I am not an expert on toy soldiers authenticity. Anyway, I am sharing this here to tap on the wit and wisdom of the forum.

I had bought a job lot of vintage hollowcast cavalry some years back and I am thinking of painting them to look good on my shelf.

All the figures are clean castings which appear in very good condition with no breakages and no oxidation. Hence, I guess that these are probably vintage figures with their colours all stripped off. Several of the figures still have their movable right arm with sword in place. The rest are missing this right arm.

I would like to refurbish and repaint them to look good in my displays. These figures are light (obviously hollow-cast) with W Britains stamped on the horse belly. From my ltd reading, I think that there are at lease three horse poses for the Scots Grey and two arm positions with sword - held upright or held forward.

I still have 9 more figures to add plug-in arms. However as I don't want to represent an original set with almost identical poses, I would like to add some variation to the arms.

As these are cavalry, would it look right to add an axe (farrier), sword held forward, bugle, guidon, etc? Probably no other musical instruments as this would mean modifying the left arm to take two handed musical instruments. BTW, how did they tighten the plug-in hand after attachment? The plug seems to have a neat central hole with a flattened end.

I propose to repaint the figures in more detail than the originals.

Your advice and inputs would be appreciated. Thanks.

Victor

 

[Mike Niederman]

Hi Victor. Bill Hocker explains how he makes the moveable cavalry arms here: https://wmhocker.com/index.php?s=profile Scroll down to the 1991/92 interview.

Yes, those are the 3 Scots Greys horse types - walking, trotting, and cantering. Pre 1953, they were all on the walking horse, the officer being distinguished by gold paint details and the outstretched sword arm. In 1953, the officer got the cantering horse and shouldered his sword. Also in 1953, all the arms were changed to wear gauntlets, as on the walking figure to the left. So the cantering figure in your picture doesn't have his original arm (his carbine bucket is also broken off). Interestingly, the walking horse is a so-called "long rein" casting, which was only made pre-1910, as far as I know. (It's actually the picket rope, not a rein, so should be painted white.)

You can buy replacement arms for farrier, trumpet with banner, and standard. All these are intended for Household Cavalry, so all are gauntleted. London Bridge, Replica Metal Models, and Dorset (via Imperial) all make versions.

Looking forward to seeing this project progress.

 

[Mike Niederman]

Hi again, Victor. This site shows a matched 1953 version set 32 with "long-rein" walking horses. Paint style is correct (grey sprayed over white) for the version; box, as noted, is not.
https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/britains-set-32-royal-scots-greys-2nd-1830596972

 

[blaster]

Hi Mike,

Thanks for you response. It gives me some clarity on the Britains' trail. A wonderful story it is, too.

I did my own limited reading starting with Andrew' Rose's Toy Soldiers. Great illustrations and this also shows the Scot's Grey band (sigh!) if I remember it.

Then read parts of Opie's magnum opus: Britains Toy Soldiers 1893-1932, The Great Book of Britains 1893-1993 and Britains Toy Soldiers: History and Handbook.

I understand the long and short rein walking horse variants. I haven't seen a pix of a Scots Grey on my other trotting horse in my books or on the web, third horse to the right (?).

As I am not a connoisseur, I prob will go for various right arm positions to create variety in my displays which I am very certain are not true originals as they are already stripped of their paint.

Thanks for the Bill Hocker interview. From what I understand, he uses a hammer to flatten the end and then drills out a hole. Not true mass production. I keep thinking that Britains must have used a rivet-like tool to fasten the arms.

I have identified trumpets with banners, an axe, a few straight arms and bent arms with swords. I probably will make up my own guidon from copper sheet. Thanks also for the spares websites.

Rgds Victor

 

[Mike Niederman]

Victor, the horse on the right in your picture is in what's referred to as the 'cantering' pose. It was used for the Scots Greys officer starting in 1953. Prior to then, the officer was on the same horse as the troopers, the walking pose, and was distinguished by gold painted uniform details and the extended sword arm. Many Britains sets changed at this date in response to the Coronation of Elisabeth II, and the increased interest in ceremonial types in toy soldiers.

Britains cavalry (and marching infantry) had a round peg at the shoulder as an integral part of the casting, over which an arm would be placed. I'm still not clear as to how the peg was spread to secure the arm. On my own recastings, I gently tap the peg while holding the casting - not practical for the millions of figures that Britains produced. But then, each of those millions was also individually hand-cast and painted! (Horses were spray painted, at least in post WWII sets.)

 

[blaster]

Hi Mike,

I've taken more pics of these figures to summarise my understanding.

Thanks for clarifying that officer on the cantering horse. I see that his sword arm with gauntlet is different from the other sword arms of the troopers.

I've noted on the ambiguity on how the arms were production secured. I have 5 of these figures still with their sword arms attached. Notice how the size of the holes and peg ends differ from figure to figure. The figure with a missing sword arm ( I have nine of these) has a straight peg with a premoulded hole on the end. I think that the arm was secured by the peg and then a whack with a hammer would spread the ends over the arm and leave a hole.

Now either these arms came off and this lot was from a restorer or these are pristine castings from the factory. I think that these are rejected castings because all of the missing sword arm figures have broken gun buckets. One of the figure with intact sword arm still has a broken gun bucket. On a couple of the figures with intact sword arms, there appears to be a thick wire soldered to the gun buckets.

I've also realised that the pouring hole was on top of the bearskin hat (3rd pic).

I've been looking at the spares being offered by all the suppliers and note that not all the spares that I want is offered by a single supplier. The quality of the castings also differ among the suppliers, based on the pics.

Rgds Victor

 

[Mike Niederman]

Hi Victor, I'll say what I can about the figures based on these photos. The horse pose descriptions are the accepted collectors' terms for the poses.
Top pic: Nose of trotting horse, two troopers on trotting horses, one trooper on walking horse. The rotting horse was only used for set 32 Scots Greys from 1953 on. The set had one officer on cantering horse, 4 troopers on 2 trotting, 2 walking horses. Officer and troopers all had the same sword arms with gauntlets. The arms on two figures in the photo are incorrect for the version of the set. The gun buckets on these figures are as originally cast, though one is slightly bent. Not visible on this angle: the sword hilt is shown as if the sword is in scabbard. Britains simply painted over this with the tunic colour.

Middle pic: Two officers on cantering horses, one trooper on trotting horse. The pristine shoulder peg likely means these guys were bought as castings, never painted. Again, incorrect arms for this 1953 version of set 32. Broken gun buckets on the officers. It's possible the officer did not carry a carbine in real life, and the break was intentional. Britains' style was to just paint over inappropriate casting details, and to paint on uncast details. If you repair the buckets, there's nothing stopping you using the cantering figures as troopers - it was only gold-painted uniform details that distinguished the officer, nothing in the casting itself.

Overhead view: The little holes confirm that the castings are original hollowcasts.

As far as replacement arms, gauntleted versions of different styles of sword at carry, carrying a standard, farrier axe, and trumpet with banner are available as being for the Household Cavalry. For bugle and extended sword arms, the addition of a bit of epoxy putty has worked for me when I needed the gauntlet look. As to the quality of replacement castings, I've always found them satisfactory from whichever source I've used. But I'm making old style toy soldiers for mass formations with basic, glossy paint jobs, not detailed figures to be individually examined. I'll tolerate fairly basic anatomical renditions.

 

[blaster]

Hi Mike,

thanks for your insights into this.

I am puzzled by the fact that you can buy pristine original castings and attached with wrong arms. I thought that Britains only supplied fully painted figures.
I would think that these are stripped off or factory rejected castings.

I'm just making customised toy soldiers in the W Britains style. I'll go for the painted grey horse look as opposed to the sprayed on look.

Rgds

Victor