Some Very Basic Questions (1 Viewer)

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wadepat

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Gentle Friends,

From time to time, I find it necessary to expose my vast amount of ignorance. However, I tell myself if I want a more complete understanding of a subject, I must ask my basic questions and expose my ignorance. This thread accomplishes the task extremely well for me. :eek:

I want to increase my understanding of the process of effectively painting toy soldiers. My first goal is to develop enough understanding of the process in order to develop skill in touching up paint chips on figures. If I am able to develop sufficient and satisfactory skill at touching up paint, I may decide to tackle more complex challenges. However, before I attempt any painting, I want the opinions of the more experienced and talented painters on the forum. I shall ask my questions one at a time in order to focus on the individual elements of my concerns. Also, the responses I receive may give rise to additional questions, so I hope members will be patient with me.

My first question is:

I understand that the brands of paints most often chosen by toy soldier painters are Humbrol and Vallejo. What makes these brands of paint better choices than brands such as Testors or Floquil?

I look forward to any information or opinions that experienced painters are willing to provide.

Warmest personal regards,

Pat :)
 
Hi, Pat, what a great thread!

I think the responses we see are going to be very subjective. Also, I wouldn't say that most painters use Humbrol or Floquil, necessarily; I think that will depend on where you live, what was available to a modeler when he started, and what's been available to him, over his career. For me, I've never used either, I've used Testor's, Pactra (now owned by Testor's), Tamiya, Mussini's "Schminke" oils, and I've recently picked up some Andrea water-based acrylics. I even have some cheap craft store water-based acrylics.

I think you might want to consider more the mechanical qualities of the type of paint, because it will determine how you use them, and the thinners or other agents you'll need.

Enamels will require thinners like turpentine or mineral spirits, or turpenoid, for thinning and for cleanup. The same thinners can be used for oils. For acrylics, you can use isopropyl alcohol for thinning and cleanup.

An advantage of acrylics is that you can learn to use washes to build up color, if you want, for highlighting or detailing; acrylics dry relatively quickly.

Of course, for what we're doing, you might just consider cost and availability. As I said up above, I use all types, and a number of brands. You might want to get some basic, cheap colors to start, mess around with them and then expand, as you get comfortable painting.

Hope that helps, prost!
Brad
 
Well for me personally I find the Testors paints too watery. I prefer the Humbrol as they are thicker. Testors and Humbrol are oil where I think Vallejo is acrylic.
 
Vallejo pigmentation is extremely fine. It was designed for the express purpose of painting miniatures. It is designed not to obscure details.

Most oils take a while to dry. Acrylics do not. One can build up layers of paint quickly with Acrylics.

Oils are generally glossy but not always. Blending with acrylics takes time to learn as does the oils. Oils are less forgiving if one makes a mistake. The cheaper craft store acrylics are good for bases and dioramas/scenics. Give me a call Pat I might be able to answer any specific questions you might have.:)
 
thebritfarmer said:
Well for me personally I find the Testors paints too watery. I prefer the Humbrol as they are thicker. Testors and Humbrol are oil where I think Vallejo is acrylic.
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Testors has both oil-based enamels and water-based acrylics in their catalog, but you need to check the label. The little square glass bottles of gloss are oil-based enamels, and ideal for toy soldier style, though some of the colors tend to dry out fast, once opened. The Model Master line includes the water-based acrylics.

I mentioned the Tamiya line, and I will also add, they're designed for scale modelers, and I've read that they're really intended for use, thinned and applied with an airbrush. But I have some of their gloss and matte acrylics, and they work fine.

KV's right, too, about the advantage of water-based acrylics and their drying time. I think that was a big reason that many figure painters began to use them, instead of oils, and using the washing techniques, instead of the blending techniques that work with oils.

For oils, to cut the sheen, you use a wax medium, a thin wax paste stirred into the pigment and thinner. The wax particles break apart and provide the rough surface (at the microscopic level) that scatters the light and appears matte.
 
I think it also depends on what it is you are painting. Apart from the quality of the paint for Vallejo (by quality, I mean good coverage and therefore only one, maybe two coats rquired, easy and smooth to apply, there is the vast range of colours to choose from - many aimed at the WWI / II onward figure and AFV painters. The Fantasy / Sci-Fi painters will quite often use Games Workshops paints, due to the different range of colours.

I agree with Brad, it is subjective. I like Vallejo and Games Workshop acryllics, but really dislike the Tamiya acryllic range, others swear by it.

As to acryllics vs oil based enamals, such as Humbrol, I used to be firmly in the enamels camp. When acryllics first came out (i.e. for the modelling market), they were nowhere near todays quality of paint, but nowadays, I much prefer the ease of acryllics, with the excption of the few gloss bits I do.
As has been said, far quicker drying time, easier cleanup and easier to play around with different effects.

Simon
 
Pat,

An easy answer for me - I have only ever used Humbrol enamel paints in the 35 years that I have been painting. I started off with Humbrol, as that was all there was in those days using the matt range for painting wargaming figures and then when I changed to toy soldiers I went with the gloss and stuck with it. Sometimes two coats are required depending on the colour and the drying time can be a pain but when the gloss has dried it gives such a wonderful shine and feel to it and the smell is just divine..........I once tried Revell paint - what a load of ****e - thin and watery.

Probably hasn't helped much as there are so many different types of paint available now that everyone has their own favourite.

Looking forward to your question about colour :D

Jeff
 
kilted vampire said:
Vallejo pigmentation is extremely fine. It was designed for the express purpose of painting miniatures. It is designed not to obscure details.

Most oils take a while to dry. Acrylics do not. One can build up layers of paint quickly with Acrylics.

Oils are generally glossy but not always. Blending with acrylics takes time to learn as does the oils. Oils are less forgiving if one makes a mistake. The cheaper craft store acrylics are good for bases and dioramas/scenics. Give me a call Pat I might be able to answer any specific questions you might have.:)
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Hi Vamp!

Thanks for the information and thanks for your offer of some telephone consultation. I may soon take you up on that offer. Have you retained your original phone number since changing residence?

Warmest personal regards,

Pat :)
 
Gentle Friends,

Thank you one and all for the information you have shared with me. It is proving most helpful.

Before I progress to my other questions, I want to make certain I am reaching correct conclusions based on your comments. The conclusions I have tentatively reached are:

1.) The choice of paint brands is a personal and individual preference. The choice seems influenced by one's experience and the brands that are easily available.

2.) There seems to be an issue of oil based enamals vs. acylyics. As I understand it, the advantages of acrylics are a faster drying time, a more forgiving nature when mistakes are made, and the ease with which washes can be accomplished. The single advantage of oil based enamals I have gleaned from the comments is the implication that the finished product will have a brighter glossy finish.

3.) Regarding my second conclusion above, I have further concluded that oil based enamals are a better choice for painting glossy figures whereas the acrylics may be a better choice when painting matte finished figures. I have examined the lists of paints available from Michigan Toy Soldiers and I noticed that the Humbrol paints clearly indicate gloss colors and matte colors. The list of Vallejo paints do not always indicate if the color is gloss or matte (flat). It is also stated on the MTSC site that Vallejo paints result in a "dead flat finish." These lists seem to further strengthen my second conclusion.

Are these tentative conclusions relatively correct? If not, how should these conclusions be altered to make them correct? I want to make certain I am not making errors in judgment based on the information you have shared before I progress to my next question.

Again, thanks for all your generous contributions. I hope you will not mind my asking additional questions as I absorb the information you have already provided.

Warmest personal regards,

Pat :)
 
Well, not to cause more debate, but as far as enamels vs acrylics goes, to produce a gloss finish, you might use a matte acrylic paint, then give it a gloss coat. That's what I do, for some colors that are only available in matte, Jeff's favorite green for the Prussian hussars, for example. The closest match I could find was a matte paint, so I use that, but then I coat the figure with Future floor wax to get the gloss finish. There are also gloss coat products available on the hobby market, like Testor's GlossCote in a rattle can. I've even read that people have used gloss varnishes from the woodworking and furniture markets.

You're conclusion about gloss enamels is correct, though, out of the bottle, you'll have the gloss surface of the classic toy soldier. Even then, with my gloss paints, I'll still apply Future as a sealer. Again, personal preference and experience.

Sorry to have muddied the waters, prost!
Brad
 
Pat here are some pics of some plastic farm animals I have painted.

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picture.php


For these I have used just regular old craft paints as found in the craft section of Walmart or the dollar store. Once dry I gave them a coat of white glue to seal and it also gave them a semi sheen. I didn't want them glossy but need to "create" the gloss that animals generally have when in good health.

Using acrylics i find it easier to make up your own colours and blend shade wash and dry brush as needed. With gloss figures they are not as detailed as matte figures so these methods IMO are not needed and I would just use humbrol enamels. A tip my dad told me if you need a matte paint and all you have is gloss oil paint is to add a titch of baby powder to the paint. Works a treat, just stir it well to dissolve the powder.
 
Bulliant paint job mate!

Especially like the blending in the first pic - very realistic.
 
Pat, I have only been painting for about two years now and if it weren't for the acryilic paints I wouldn't be doing it at all. Personally I love them. I just clean up with water and dont have to smell all the chemical thinners etc.
 
Very nice Scott these look really good. :)
 

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wadepat said:
Gentle Friends,

3.) Regarding my second conclusion above, I have further concluded that oil based enamals are a better choice for painting glossy figures whereas the acrylics may be a better choice when painting matte finished figures. I have examined the lists of paints available from Michigan Toy Soldiers and I noticed that the Humbrol paints clearly indicate gloss colors and matte colors. The list of Vallejo paints do not always indicate if the color is gloss or matte (flat). It is also stated on the MTSC site that Vallejo paints result in a "dead flat finish." These lists seem to further strengthen my second conclusion.

Are these tentative conclusions relatively correct? If not, how should these conclusions be altered to make them correct? I want to make certain I am not making errors in judgment based on the information you have shared before I progress to my next question.

Warmest personal regards,

Pat :)
Click to expand...

Hi Pat
just to give you my to cents worth.
But as a user of Vallejo paints i can say that they do not give a 'dead flat finish" they give a matt finish with a slight sheen.
but if you use Humbrol matt varnish over the Vallejo paint you will get a matt finish that is very very matt.
infact by doing this they will look even more matt then any metal's from K&C/Britains/Frontline ect.
But Varinsh is another topic :).
 
wadepat said:
[/B]

Hi Vamp!

Thanks for the information and thanks for your offer of some telephone consultation. I may soon take you up on that offer. Have you retained your original phone number since changing residence?

Warmest personal regards,

Pat :)
Click to expand...

Yes I have . Do you still have it?:D
 
Gentle Friends,

Ha! :D I thought I was asking a simple question that would generate a simple answer! Let me return to the three tentative conclusions I reached in frame #8.

1.) My first tentative conclusion seems valid. The choice of brands of paint is a very personal thing.

2.) My second conclusion seems valid. There is a definite issue regarding the preference for oil based enamels vs. a preference for acrylics. Both types of paint have their fans and, again, we see the matter of preference and experience as important factors in what type of paint we choose to use.

3.) My third tentative conclusion is probably best viewed as a generalization, not a conclusion. In short, there are various ways to create a glossy finish and a variety of ways to create a matte finish, but, generally speaking, one tends to use enamels to create a glossy finish and one tends to use acrylics to create a matte finish.

Are the above items generally correct? If not, please continue to clarify my mistaken notions. If the above items are correct or at least mostly correct, let me know and I will move to my next basic question.

Thanks for all your discussion! It is most helpful to me!

Warmest personal regards,

Pat :)
 
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