1812 Indians? (1 Viewer)

Scott

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Could one have the John Jenkins Indians "authentically" fighting the John Jenkins US 1812 figures? Did American Indians change much in 50 years?

I'm not an "expert" on Native Americans but I know that the Creeks of the South East looked different than the tribes on the Canadian border during the same period. One couldn't do Horseshoe Bend with them but maybe the Dearborn Massacre.
 
Their weapons might be different and they probably wore white mans' clothing more.
Mark
 
Could one have the John Jenkins Indians "authentically" fighting the John Jenkins US 1812 figures? Did American Indians change much in 50 years?

I'm not an "expert" on Native Americans but I know that the Creeks of the South East looked different than the tribes on the Canadian border during the same period. One couldn't do Horseshoe Bend with them but maybe the Dearborn Massacre.

John said the WIM series would fit perfect on the British or American side...he told me was going to make some Seneca Indians for the American forces...

On July 3, 1814, the largest and best American army yet assembled on the Niagara Frontier crossed the Niagara River from Buffalo, led by Maj. Gen. Jacob Brown. Included in that force were 500 Iroquois, including Seneca, Onondaga, Tuscarora and Oneida warriors under the command of General Porter and Seneca war chief Red Jacket. The Americans quickly took possession of Fort Erie and then turned in the direction of Chippewa and Fort George.

Two days later, on July 5, opposing armies once again met, this time for probably the bloodiest battle of the campaign on the Niagara Frontier, the Battle of Chippewa. And it was there that Iroquois warriors found themselves facing brother Iroquois in a major battle for the first and last time.

The Americans made contact with the British army, under the command of Maj. Gen. Phineas Riall, early in the afternoon. What followed was an intense battle, with heavy losses on both sides. Riall had about 300 Indians under his command, 200 of them Iroquois warriors led by John Norton. Iroquois snipers were the first to engage the Americans, antagonizing them throughout the morning. At about 3 p.m., Norton led a brigade of warriors, British light infantry and militia into the woods below the village of Chippewa. Once in the woods they divided into three groups and began moving south through the forest for the purpose of engaging the Americans’ left flank.

Red Jacket’s Iroquois entered the woods south of the American position and out of their view. Their mission was to surround and eliminate the snipers on the British side. That move also put the American Iroquois on a collision course with the Canadian Iroquois. Red Jacket’s warriors soon located the snipers, at which point they spread out and approached within firing range.

“The Iroquois rushed forward with a deafening chorus of war cries and pursued the snipers,” Porter later recalled of the battle. “For more than a mile through scenes of indescribable horror, few only of the fugitives surrendering themselves as prisoners, while others believing that no quarter was to be given, suffered themselves to be overtaken and cut down with the tomahawk, or turned upon their pursuers and fought to the last.”

Red Jacket’s warriors chased the remaining snipers who were still able to flee, only to run straight into one of Norton’s lines of Grand River Iroquois and British light infantry. Red Jacket’s warriors, believing that they were outnumbered, then retreated toward the American lines.

While pursuing the retreating American Iroquois, Norton and his men came upon dozens of their slaughtered kinsmen, but they were too late to take revenge as Red Jacket’s men were already scrambling across the fields to the American front. At that point, Norton and his men could only stay low and fire upon Winfield Scott’s 1st Brigade as it advanced to do battle with the British. Scott’s troops managed to gain the upper hand over General Riall’s British forces, and Riall called for a withdrawal, giving the field of battle to the Americans. Norton’s Iroquois and the light infantry were then called upon to cover the retreat of the British regulars. Behind them they left 87 dead tribesmen.

The Battle of Chippewa thus saw the heaviest Indian casualties of the entire war. Besides the 87 dead suffered by the Grand River Iroquois, the American Iroquois suffered 25 dead and many wounded.

One of the Iroquois fighting with the Americans who fell during the battle was the Oneida Chief Cornelius Doxtator. Ephraim Webster, an interpreter who was at the battle, recalled his death: “Doxtator was pursued by five or six mounted Wyandots (Huron). They passed near him, and knowing well the Indian rules of warfare, he stood erect and firm, looking them full in the face; they passed him unharmed. Doxtator was shot just as he leaped a fence near by, upon which the Wyandots wheeled and rode off.” In 1877 Chief Doxtator’s grandson told what happened next: “After Doxtator was shot a Chippewa ran up, tomahawked and scalped him; and with others, captured Doxtator’s two boys, Daniel and George, respectively 17 and 15, who were near their father. But some Oneidas shot the Chippewa as he was clambering a fence, tomahawked and scalped him, and recovered the prisoner boys.”

The sight of Iroquois killing other Iroquois devastated surviving warriors and the Indian communities on both sides of the border. According to An Account of Sa-G-Ye-Wat-Ha, or Red Jacket, and His People, 1750-1830, by John Niles Hubbard: “That the battle of Chippewa was particularly severe to the Indian forces engaged in it, may be inferred from the fact that the British Indians retreated not only beyond the Chippewa, but stayed [stopped] not until they had gone thirty miles further. The battle ground was strewed with many of their number who had been slain….The sight of slain warriors was far from being a pleasing object for Red Jacket to behold, and having ever been opposed to his people engaging in contests that did not really concern them, he proposed…that they should withdraw from a further participation in the war, in case they could prevail on their Canadian brethren to do the same….The Indians therefore after this retired to their villages, with the exception of a few young braves, with whom the love of war was a more potent influence than the counsels of the aged and more considerate of their nation.”

The fact that most of the Iroquois deaths were inflicted by brother Iroquois changed the Nations’ view of the war and thereafter they remained neutral.
 
Most tv shows and movies depict the western plains indians so most people who have a surface knowledge of Native peoples think of them but know very little of the easten woodland indians whose cultures was every bit as interesting as their western counterparts.
Mark
 
Just getting back from Vacation and just catching up on the my board readings. I could be wrong about this but I think among the Iroqouis tribes, the number and position of headress feathers (eagle feathers?) indicated the tribe you belonged to so:

3 Vertical = Mohawk
2 Vertical + 1 Horizontal (Trailing Behind)= Onieda
1 Vertical = Seneca
1 Horizontal = Cayuga
1 Vertical + 1 Horizontal = Onondaga

I am pretty sure such feather arrangements and placements would have been used in Iroquis Council meetings and such, not fully sure about war party dress. But I think it is safe to say that a figure with more than 3 feathers would not be a good depiction for an Iroqouis.

As Chief Scarouyady was an Onieda, I was thinking that the figure might have been better depicted with 2 Vertical and + 1 Trailing Feather, but I could be totally wrong about this.

I think most of John's Indians are best as Woodland Great Lake which matches BoM.
 
Just getting back from Vacation and just catching up on the my board readings. I could be wrong about this but I think among the Iroqouis tribes, the number and position of headress feathers (eagle feathers?) indicated the tribe you belonged to so:

3 Vertical = Mohawk
2 Vertical + 1 Horizontal (Trailing Behind)= Onieda
1 Vertical = Seneca
1 Horizontal = Cayuga
1 Vertical + 1 Horizontal = Onondaga

I am pretty sure such feather arrangements and placements would have been used in Iroquis Council meetings and such, not fully sure about war party dress. But I think it is safe to say that a figure with more than 3 feathers would not be a good depiction for an Iroqouis.

As Chief Scarouyady was an Onieda, I was thinking that the figure might have been better depicted with 2 Vertical and + 1 Trailing Feather, but I could be totally wrong about this.

I think most of John's Indians are best as Woodland Great Lake which matches BoM.

This is interesting information that I never realized.I wonder if that's how tribes recognized each other when tribes were warring against each other.
Mark
 
Feather arrangements among the Iroquois have been variously reported over the years. Here, are we talking about feathers stuck in the hair, feathers in caps? One present day artist, a Seneca, who makes Gustoweh caps cites the following Eagle feather arrangements:

Seneca - One upright feather
Mohawk – Three upright feathers (in a row)
Onondaga – One upright in addition to one side feather
Cayuga - One feather off to the side
Oneida – Two upright and one side feather
Tuscarora – No upright or side plumes ; only cluster of feathers on top of cap

The eagle feather was a prized element in the Gustoweh cap's arrangement. But, many other feathers were used in the hats, mostly turkey and grouse feathers were used on the hats. So, when considering feather arrangements are we talking Eagle feathers (most prized and with the most mystical associations) or all feathers?

That being said, others over the years have different feather arrangements have been recorded. Also, feather arrangements varied not just by Tribal association, but also clan and social status of the wearer.

And, of course, things were different in the Pre Contact period, the Post Contact Period, and the post Revolutionary War period as styles changed dramatically.

And, keep in mind that the "Feather Dance" was one of the biggest tribal ceremonies of the year. Also in many Iroquois legends feathers are central to the theme of the "story" such as "How the Buzzard got his Feathers."

All in all, I'd say that there is no definitive standard for feather arrangements among the Iroquois, so whatever JJ wants to stick on his figures is OK by me.
Marc
Chicago
 
Marc,

Any thoughts on Iroquois wearing more than 3 Feathers, especially when in battle or in hair. We have more solid knowledge on the Gustoweh Caps.

I have seen artist warrior depictions of some Iroqouis where the eagle feather number and placement and number in the Hair, apparently correspond to the Gustoweh Cap configuration, but no idea if this would be accurate. These drawings were identified as Onieda or Mohawk .....

Clearly, the WIM figures were not indended to depict Iroquois, but more western tribes allied to the French. No criticism was intended.

I am very happy with John's WIM series. I think it may be his best work.

Ken
 
Last edited:
John said the WIM series would fit perfect on the British or American side...he told me was going to make some Seneca Indians for the American forces...

On July 3, 1814, the largest and best American army yet assembled on the Niagara Frontier crossed the Niagara River from Buffalo, led by Maj. Gen. Jacob Brown. Included in that force were 500 Iroquois, including Seneca, Onondaga, Tuscarora and Oneida warriors under the command of General Porter and Seneca war chief Red Jacket. The Americans quickly took possession of Fort Erie and then turned in the direction of Chippewa and Fort George.

Two days later, on July 5, opposing armies once again met, this time for probably the bloodiest battle of the campaign on the Niagara Frontier, the Battle of Chippewa. And it was there that Iroquois warriors found themselves facing brother Iroquois in a major battle for the first and last time.

The Americans made contact with the British army, under the command of Maj. Gen. Phineas Riall, early in the afternoon. What followed was an intense battle, with heavy losses on both sides. Riall had about 300 Indians under his command, 200 of them Iroquois warriors led by John Norton. Iroquois snipers were the first to engage the Americans, antagonizing them throughout the morning. At about 3 p.m., Norton led a brigade of warriors, British light infantry and militia into the woods below the village of Chippewa. Once in the woods they divided into three groups and began moving south through the forest for the purpose of engaging the Americans’ left flank.

Red Jacket’s Iroquois entered the woods south of the American position and out of their view. Their mission was to surround and eliminate the snipers on the British side. That move also put the American Iroquois on a collision course with the Canadian Iroquois. Red Jacket’s warriors soon located the snipers, at which point they spread out and approached within firing range.

“The Iroquois rushed forward with a deafening chorus of war cries and pursued the snipers,” Porter later recalled of the battle. “For more than a mile through scenes of indescribable horror, few only of the fugitives surrendering themselves as prisoners, while others believing that no quarter was to be given, suffered themselves to be overtaken and cut down with the tomahawk, or turned upon their pursuers and fought to the last.”

Red Jacket’s warriors chased the remaining snipers who were still able to flee, only to run straight into one of Norton’s lines of Grand River Iroquois and British light infantry. Red Jacket’s warriors, believing that they were outnumbered, then retreated toward the American lines.

While pursuing the retreating American Iroquois, Norton and his men came upon dozens of their slaughtered kinsmen, but they were too late to take revenge as Red Jacket’s men were already scrambling across the fields to the American front. At that point, Norton and his men could only stay low and fire upon Winfield Scott’s 1st Brigade as it advanced to do battle with the British. Scott’s troops managed to gain the upper hand over General Riall’s British forces, and Riall called for a withdrawal, giving the field of battle to the Americans. Norton’s Iroquois and the light infantry were then called upon to cover the retreat of the British regulars. Behind them they left 87 dead tribesmen.

The Battle of Chippewa thus saw the heaviest Indian casualties of the entire war. Besides the 87 dead suffered by the Grand River Iroquois, the American Iroquois suffered 25 dead and many wounded.

One of the Iroquois fighting with the Americans who fell during the battle was the Oneida Chief Cornelius Doxtator. Ephraim Webster, an interpreter who was at the battle, recalled his death: “Doxtator was pursued by five or six mounted Wyandots (Huron). They passed near him, and knowing well the Indian rules of warfare, he stood erect and firm, looking them full in the face; they passed him unharmed. Doxtator was shot just as he leaped a fence near by, upon which the Wyandots wheeled and rode off.” In 1877 Chief Doxtator’s grandson told what happened next: “After Doxtator was shot a Chippewa ran up, tomahawked and scalped him; and with others, captured Doxtator’s two boys, Daniel and George, respectively 17 and 15, who were near their father. But some Oneidas shot the Chippewa as he was clambering a fence, tomahawked and scalped him, and recovered the prisoner boys.”

The sight of Iroquois killing other Iroquois devastated surviving warriors and the Indian communities on both sides of the border. According to An Account of Sa-G-Ye-Wat-Ha, or Red Jacket, and His People, 1750-1830, by John Niles Hubbard: “That the battle of Chippewa was particularly severe to the Indian forces engaged in it, may be inferred from the fact that the British Indians retreated not only beyond the Chippewa, but stayed [stopped] not until they had gone thirty miles further. The battle ground was strewed with many of their number who had been slain….The sight of slain warriors was far from being a pleasing object for Red Jacket to behold, and having ever been opposed to his people engaging in contests that did not really concern them, he proposed…that they should withdraw from a further participation in the war, in case they could prevail on their Canadian brethren to do the same….The Indians therefore after this retired to their villages, with the exception of a few young braves, with whom the love of war was a more potent influence than the counsels of the aged and more considerate of their nation.”

The fact that most of the Iroquois deaths were inflicted by brother Iroquois changed the Nations’ view of the war and thereafter they remained neutral.

Mike, I know you keep in pretty close touch with John and I was wondering if you have had any more feedback or comment from him regarding developing this piece of the Chippewa range in the future. Just curious.

MD
 
John had mentioned...

that working on some Senecas is on his list...

he also mentioned to have just started some new Indians...

Stockbridge, Mohawk and Delaware, and is enjoying working on them...

this is very exciting to me...

I always welcome more Jenkin's Indians...

they seem to fit so many of his French Indian War series...

so interchangeable...

I really believe he does the best Indians that are being manufactured currently and as far as I'm concerned...

I can't get enough...

there was a very diverse collection of Iroquois at Chippewa...

many tribes fought on each side against each other...

later...horribly regretted by the Iroquois Indian Nation.
 
John had mentioned...

that working on some Senecas is on his list...

he also mentioned to have just started some new Indians...

Stockbridge, Mohawk and Delaware, and is enjoying working on them...

this is very exciting to me...

I always welcome more Jenkin's Indians...

they seem to fit so many of his French Indian War series...

so interchangeable...

I really believe he does the best Indians that are being manufactured currently and as far as I'm concerned...

I can't get enough...

there was a very diverse collection of Iroquois at Chippewa...

many tribes fought on each side against each other...

later...horribly regretted by the Iroquois Indian Nation.

Thanks Mike. This is a really fascinating aspect of the action at Chippewa and seems ripe for more figures. Might be a good way to display the couple of Light Co. sets already released I thought for example.

MD
 

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