Berlin (2 Viewers)

[Rob]

Over the last couple of days i have been suffering from some sort of bug(my wife calls it 'manflu'!)and have been laid up.This has given me a chance to turn my attention to the pile of books i have yet to read.I have started reading Antony Beevor 'Berlin the downfall 1945'.What a superb book.

The whole Russian German conflict was truly mind boggling in many different aspects.The size of the combatants forces,the ferocity and depths of human experience and the grim,bleak environs in which it was fought.Does anyone else think that the Russians HAD probably earned the right(through suffering)to take Berlin.And also whatever the Germans had done in Russia was the Rape on a massive scale of Berlin women a serious war crime that was a stain on the soviet army never to be removed?.Before i read this book (although i had not read any books on him)i thought Zhukov generally thought of as an excellant leader and a hero.I was surprised to read many criticisms of him in this book.

I wasn't sure as to which forum i should post this in,however i think it is an excellant book and would be interested to read others thoughts on Beevor/Berlin/Zhukov.

Rob

 

[Joey]

The Russians delivered the greatest effort in WWII to beat back the Germans. They have suffered more than any other nation in the war. So, symbolically, it's only right that they took Berlin.

As for the massive scale rape of the Berlin women: do you think the Germans were courtious when they entered Russia? They too raped and killed as if their life depended on it. It all seems barbaric, but for all these years, you have been craving for revenge, for the death of your family and friends. Also, a lot of these boys hadn't seen a woman in almost four years. So go figure...

Also, I've recently seen a documentary with eye-witness reports from the conflicts. Alongside them was a woman, who had undergone this sad faith. She claimed though that the frontline soldiers ("the first wave") were very polite, they drank Wodka with the air raid shelter-surveillant, etc. It were the soldiers following these brave boys that excelled in misconduct. She said though that officers could keep the men sustained during the day, but at night, a lot of them just got drunk and went on route...

Though we must not forget that the major part of the Russian soldiers helped distributing food to the people of Berlin, etc. All thanks to the first city commander (can't remember his name right now) who soon realised that the Soviets were not here to destroy, but to occupy and win the local population for the Soviet cause...

As for Zhukov: Highly over-rated. Though seen today as the great Soviet general, it was Koniev who reached Berlin first, it was Koniev that neared the Reichstag as first, and it was Koniev who was stopped by Stalin 200 metres away from the Reichstag so that one of Zhukovs divisions could raise the flag on the Reichstag. And that all for the prestige...

He wasn't that kind for his men either...

 

[nmrocks]

to Tie into the Russian front discussion, there's a new DVD out about Stalingrad. It gives a very balanced perspective with interveiws from both sides. It's divided in to three sections of roughly an hour each.
Really very well done with lots of authentic footage, I got it at the video store as a new relaese.
Ray

 

[jazzeum]

It's on my reading list but Beevor's Battle for Stalingrad is supposed to be excellent.

Although they were barbaric, as Joey said, it was payback. It was a war where no quarter was asked and none given.

As far as Zhukhov and Koniev, Stalin played them off against each other so they were trying to do outdo each other as to getting to Berlin first. For the Russians, their men weren't just soldiers, they were cannonfodder. This may seem crass but I don't think the Russians had the same regard for life that westerners do. They just threw them into the breach to mow down as many Germans as they could. Eisenhower and Montgomery were a bit more concerned about the men under their command.

 

[Rob]

I understand it was total war but i do think mass rape on such a large and prolonged scale was something else again.But i also realise the desire for revenge for a country that suffered terrible outrages.What caused such a deep seated almost religous hatred between these countries that simply didn't exist between Germany/uk or the USA.

What drove the ss at the head of the Russian invasion to murder so many innocent people.?Is it a bit like these tragic and thankfully rare cases in which a young child kills another child.?No real reason behind but they did just because they could.Reading the book it was almost as if the barbarity reached such an intensity it was a different war altogether from the one in the rest of Europe.

Its good to read a book like this because you become aware of the millions and millions of people that you don't often think about that also gave their lives so we could live in freedom.Humbling.

Rob

 

[vandilay]

I have read both books ,berlin and stalingrad aswell as his book on crete
as you have said they are superb books.
In his book on stalingrad he describes it as this.

The idea of Rassenkampf,or 'race war,gave the russian campaign its unprecedented character.many historians now argue that nazi propaganda had so effectively dehumanized the soviet enemy in the eyes of the wermacht that it was morally anaesthetized from the start of the invasion.

When the russians finnaly entered germany ,the average russian soldier
had similarly been brainwashed by nkvd propaganda,and the mix of alcohol
and a desire for revenge meant large parts of the russian army where
pretty much out of control especialy at night when they where drunk.
and the german cvilians suffered accordingly.

 

[jazzeum]

Rob,

You might want to read this book recently translated in English to get an idea of the mentality of the German soldier on what they did in Russia, The Wehrmacht: History, Myth, Reality by Wolfram Wette. Also see here for a review, http://www.treefrogtreasures.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1417

 

[Rob]

Thanks Brad,like the sound of that.

Rob

 

[Njja]

to Tie into the Russian front discussion, there's a new DVD out about Stalingrad. It gives a very balanced perspective with interveiws from both sides. It's divided in to three sections of roughly an hour each.
Really very well done with lots of authentic footage, I got it at the video store as a new relaese.
Ray

Ray

What is the name of this new DVD?

Njja

 

[nmrocks]

Ray

What is the name of this new DVD?

Njja

It's titled Stalingrad.


Stalingrad


Format: HD-DVD Rating: NR
Director: Christian Deick, Jorg Mullner, Sebastian Dehnhardt Release Date: May 30, 2006
Region Code: Region 1: US, CA UPC: 654930305393
Genre: Action, Adventure

 

[Njja]

Thanks I'll check it out at my local Blockbuster, or Best Buy.

Njja

 

[Gideon]

I always used to hear that German women still shudder when someone says "frau comen" (woman come).

Mass rape is not justified. The Russian troops also raped Jewish women who had been "liberated" from the death camps. What a way to be liberated.

I can understand that Russia and her people suffered horribly at the hands of the German Officials and the German army but that by no means justifies mass rape.

In my mind, this is a war crime and a terrible act of brutality fr the sake of doing it.

 

[Wraith]

Gideon,

Agree entirely. No excuses, whether it's mass rape or a single rape and whatever preceded these acts (and there is no doubting the brutality that did precede the fall of Berlin), nothing can excuse these actions.

Simon

 

[sceic2]

I am not advocating rape, just making a few observations.

Rape is not uncommon in any war. It’s even happening, although less frequently in Iraq. Rape is a statement of the conqueror to the conquered that his next generation will be that of the conqueror’. Moguls, Greeks, Persians, Romans, Chinese, Japanese, Saxons, Vikings, et al used rape as method of supplanting the genetic heritage of the conquered. It is the ultimate form of revenge, to kill all the warriors in battle and then implant the women with the enemy’s genes. It is a form of species survival of the fittest.

We in the West are trying to civilize warfare. We establish rules of civility and proper methods of killing the enemy. Rules of engagement and the Geneva Treaties are examples. Temujin destroyed all males and females over the child bearing age. He then took all the children and gave them to his men. They were raised as Mongols and bore their offspring. That too is a form of rape. Doesn’t make it correct, but it (rape) is a feature of the human species and I don’t believe that PC will ever win over basel instincts.

 

[Gideon]

Sadly, I can't argue against that point. It is found in nature too.

 

[Rob]

Well i just finished the book and i'm really glad i read it.It was very engaging and had me hooked from the start.I learnt a whole load of stuff i never knew about including the terrible fighting in the forests around Berlin as German troops fought for their lives to try to get to safety.The plight of Berlin women as discussed above was truly appalling and inexcusable.It would appear almost no one from the Russian side comes out of this story in a good light,apart from those perhaps who did show the Berlin residents humanity and kindness.These though were pitifully few. Mr Beevor is an excellant author and i cannot wait to read his book on Crete that i have just ordered.

Rob

 

[Combat]

Well i just finished the book and i'm really glad i read it.It was very engaging and had me hooked from the start.I learnt a whole load of stuff i never knew about including the terrible fighting in the forests around Berlin as German troops fought for their lives to try to get to safety.The plight of Berlin women as discussed above was truly appalling and inexcusable.It would appear almost no one from the Russian side comes out of this story in a good light,apart from those perhaps who did show the Berlin residents humanity and kindness.These though were pitifully few. Mr Beevor is an excellant author and i cannot wait to read his book on Crete that i have just ordered.

Rob

I saw Beevor speak after the Berlin book came out. He seemed fixated on the mass rape commited by the Russians. Spoke mostly about his research in the Russian archives and very little about the battle. Frankly, in comparison to "Stalingrad" it was somewhat of a disappointment. I always liked the "The Last Battle" by C. Ryan which was every bit as entertaining and informative. An oldie but goody. Also you should see "Downfall" if you get a chance - a great Berlin movie.

 

[Rob]

I take your ponit about the rape issue,he did seem to linger on it.However i really enjoyed this book,the description of forest and street fighing was very good.But i agree it probably is not as good as Stalingrad.I really enjoyed the film downfall that went a long way to show the awful atmosphere in Berlin during those final days.

I read that Beevor found Beriln/Stalingrad very draining and so he is doing only one more book on ww2, D Day which he is working on right now.Have today started reading his book on Crete, so will see how this one is.

Rob

 

[CannonFodder1971]

I take your ponit about the rape issue,he did seem to linger on it.However i really enjoyed this book,the description of forest and street fighing was very good.But i agree it probably is not as good as Stalingrad.I really enjoyed the film downfall that went a long way to show the awful atmosphere in Berlin during those final days.

I read that Beevor found Beriln/Stalingrad very draining and so he is doing only one more book on ww2, D Day which he is working on right now.Have today started reading his book on Crete, so will see how this one is.

Rob

Beevor's Stalingrad is quite an uncompromising read too, but not as much focus on atrocities against civilians than the Berlin one. By the way in the early 1980s he wrote an excellent history of the Spanish Civil War. When I read it a few years ago, I was half-expecting to be disappointed by it because some people felt that the current-day British politics of that era (British trade union movement and Labour pary heavily infiltrated by various far left agitators) had all been absorbed into his view of the relationship between the Spanish Republican government and the Communists. However, it stood up well on my reading of it and I hear that it has now been republished.

 

[jazzeum]

Beevor's Stalingrad is quite an uncompromising read too, but not as much focus on atrocities against civilians than the Berlin one. By the way in the early 1980s he wrote an excellent history of the Spanish Civil War. When I read it a few years ago, I was half-expecting to be disappointed by it because some people felt that the current-day British politics of that era (British trade union movement and Labour pary heavily infiltrated by various far left agitators) had all been absorbed into his view of the relationship between the Spanish Republican government and the Communists. However, it stood up well on my reading of it and I hear that it has now been republished.

I'm not sure what you mean by the Spanish Civil War reference. The Republicans were the validly elected government in 1936 and the Nationalists the rebels overturning results they didn't like and trying to suppress changes they couldn't control. While the West fiddled, the dictatorial powers (both left and right) had no scruples about supporting their sides.