British 24 pounder in North America (1 Viewer)

mikemiller1955

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The artillery establishment of the British Army in North America was based on the standard establishment of the field army used in Spain during the Peninsular campaign. Normal British Army issue to the artillery was based on the brass 6 pounder and brass 9 pounders and 12 pounders, as well as the brass 5.5Ó howitzer. The howitzer and 6 pounders used the same gun carriage, indicating a commonalty of interchangeable parts similar to the French system adapted by the American artillery.
Gun carriages for British artillery were primarily based on the single trail system that was later adopted by the United States and used from the 1830Õs until the advent of modern artillery.. There was one major anomaly, however, in British artillery issue to North America. This was a gun referred to as the Ôshort 24Õ. The Short 24 was originally developed for use in the Peninsular campaigns, and was intended to be usable as a generic heavy field piece that could be used both in the field and as a siege gun. It fell somewhat short of the Royal ArtilleryÕs expectations, however. The Short 24 was apparently an iron gun, with the same barrel length of a standard 9 pounder. It used a modified double trail gun carriage system, the only one of its kind used by the Royal Artillery during the Napoleonic wars on a field gun (double trail gun carriages were standard on 18 pounder and 24 pounder siege guns). ItÕs shortcomings were quickly apparent, however, once it was put into use. As a field gun, it was less than useful, not only because its weight restricted its movement and speed of deployment, but because of its low rate of fire. As a mobile siege gun, it was badly outranged by the 18 pounders that the French used as garrison guns on the outer works of fortified towns and cities. While the 24 pound ball was certainly capable of more damage than the usual 18 pounder of the typical siege gun, the besieging battery was well within moderate range of the defending French guns while still at extreme range for itself. Such obvious shortcomings made the Short 24 non-competitive for use in Europe, which resulted in the disastrous mistake of issuing them to the Royal Artillery in North America. There, the British had to contend with roads that were in even poorer condition than in Spain and Portugal, thus limiting the movement and deployment of these guns even further., And, even worse, it was expected to compete against American artillery that already had a quantitative and qualitative superiority.

There were also attempts to utilize carronades as field guns, with even less success than that of the Short 24.

British gun carriages were painted a medium blue-gray, with black ironwork and black hubs.

http://war1812.tripod.com/bartillery.html
 
Mike, I think you will need a flock of horses to move this puppy!!!!

From a discussion of the Peninsula War (Spain/Portugal):

http://www.napoleon-series.org/military/organization/Britain/Artillery/c_british12pounders.html

Due to the chronic shortage of good horses and the poor state of the roads – or lack thereof – great difficulty was had in drawing the heavier field guns. Gun-teams for all calibres of weapons suffered greatly and William Robe argued that

“Every Artillery Carriage for Service in this Country, and Spain will require to be Drawn by Six horses; the Long 6-pounder guns by eight; and the 12 pounder guns by ten.

Each Light 6-pounder in Brigade therefore without more ammunition carried on its cars, must have 14 carriages, with six horses each, which, with the Riding and Spare, will amount to 110 (horses).

The Long 6-pounder in the like manner will require 123 (horses) and the 12-pounder Brigade 165 (horses)”

He added,

“Experience has shown that no less a number can move them in the hills and bad roads of this country!”

In other words, gun teams were enlarged by an extra pair of animals. It was becoming obvious, however, that as the Peninsula campaign drew on not only was the quality of the horses available dropping, but also their number. Robe, therefore, was forced to reduce the strength of Brigades to four, or even in some cases three pieces, and the heavier field guns, notably the 12- and 9-pounders were increasingly un-used. Robe suggested that the 12-pounder albeit it a powerful weapon, having to use 165 horses to transport them was too great a strain on artillery resources and ordered that a Brigade of 9-pounders be sent to replace them. Even then, there was a 12-pounder Brigade present in Spain as late as 1810. This, therefore, suggests that the 12-pounders were not taken out of service due to being too heavy and immobile, they were taken out of service due to the extreme climate and rough terrain encountered in Spain, and more importantly, there were insufficient horses available to move them.
 
Could this cannon as made by JJD be used for the Seige of Quebec during the F&IW? I believe the double trail is correct for this time period as well as the color of the carrage but I am wondering if the casting details on the barrel are appropriate.
Any help would be most appreciated.
 
Could this cannon as made by JJD be used for the Seige of Quebec during the F&IW? I believe the double trail is correct for this time period as well as the color of the carrage but I am wondering if the casting details on the barrel are appropriate.
Any help would be most appreciated.

I believe the British had only a few 6 pdr on the Plains of Abraham. But they would have had 24 pdr on their ships with naval carriages.. They may have had 24 pdr with field carriages in the battery position shelling Quebec City from the opposite shore.

Terry
 
Ken...here's an article about horse artillery you might like...

Horse artillery units generally used lighter pieces, pulled by six horses.

9-pounders were pulled by eight horses, and heavier artillery pieces needed a team of twelve.

With the individual riding horses required for officers, surgeons and other support staff, as well as those pulling the artillery guns and supply wagons, an artillery battery of six guns could require 160 to 200 horses.

Horse artillery usually came under the command of cavalry divisions, but in some battles, such as Waterloo, horse artillery was used as a rapid response force, repulsing attacks and assisting the infantry.

Agility was important; the ideal artillery horse was 15 to 16 hands high, strongly built, but able to move quickly.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horse_artillery
 
From Fire and Stone: The Science of Fortress Warfare 1660 - 1860 (Christopher Duffy):

In 1697, by when artillery was much lighter than it had been in the early sixteenth century, the Austrian general Borner made some calculations for a projected sidge of Temesvar, and decided he would need 1,849 pair of oxen and 753 vehicles to transport a small train of ten 24-pounders and ten mortars and the downright inadequate stock of 3,000 roundshot and 2,000 bombs. (Fraxinus: This works out to 184 oxen per gun).


One pound of powder would yield roughly eight charges for a wall-piece (punt gun, swivel gun??) or fill between thirty and forty muskets cartidges ---- which would be rather less than half the quantity an infantryman would fire away on a single turn of normal duty on the ramparts. The musket balls were cast from bars of lead, of which one pound produced twelve or more rounds. One days firing by a single muskeeter would therefore deplete the muntion stocks by more than 2 pounds of gunpowder and over five of lead.

Logistics is so not fun!!!
 
(Fraxinus: This works out to 184 oxen per gun).
Logistics is so not fun!!!

That just doesn't sound practical does it...184 oxen for one gun...did they eat 174 of them along the way?

You know...logistics is so under rated...I'm sure some battles were won by a good logostical officer's planning...I know Abercrombie didn't win...but he supposedly excelled in logistics...transporting 16,000 men with supplies is no small feat...
 
Ken...here's some stuff on the British Royal Horse Artillery...

concerming horses...

British Royal Horse Artillery

By Richard Moore
Britain created its horse artillery arm in 1793 as a means of giving valuable heavy-gun support to its cavalry.

The use of fast-moving cannons had been successfully used by the British East India Company in India, and also by the armies of Frederick the Great.

With its artillerymen all riding into battle - on horses, wagons or limbers - the Royal Horse Artillery was able to keep up with the troopers it was meant to support.

It began with seven troops of five guns - initially six pounders, but later with some nine-pounder guns - and a 5.5 inch howitzer.

Each troop was split into three divisions of two guns and then down to one-gun subdivisions. Each subdivision had its own horses, ammunition wagons, gunners and support troops.

A complete troop of six-pounders would total some 168 officers and men, plus some 182 horses, while 200 men and 194 horses were needed for a nine-pounder troop.

http://www.napoleonguide.com/artillery_britain-royal-horse.htm
 
We forgot to add the weight of the limber and the ammunition to what the horses were pulling, so add another 1,200 - 1,500 pounds to the overall weight - so pulling at least 6,200 pounds --- (5,000 gun+carriage)+ (1,200 -1,500 limber+ammunition). But as a comparision, a French 12-pounder cannon and carriage was running around 4,400 pounds. The barrel would be 20-inches longer on the french 12-pounder than a british 9 pounder or the light 24-pounder so that is why the 12-pounder would be nearly as heavy as the light 24-pounder.

Nice link below for rivet counting technical details, cannon weights. Go to Section 7 under Contents and flip back 8-9 pages to reach the start of tables giving the cannon+carriage+limber+ammo weights.

or here might be better

http://books.google.com/books?id=0-cDAAAAQAAJ&dq=j. morton spearman&pg=PT108#v=onepage&q&f=false


Some of the reasons why the gun was "rejected" are discussed here:

http://books.google.com/books?id=Er...er weight cannon&pg=PA392#v=onepage&q&f=false
 
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Ken...page 109 says...

"However all these developments were too late to have any effect on the war...and the light 24 pounder was never used in action against it's intended enemies...the Americans"
 
Seems much of the information I was searching for John had included in the actual item description, but seems I was a tad forgetful and went off speculating once again. I attached the original JJD description below, but I did find out 1 additional piece of information not listed. Osprey's volume on Niagara gives the barrel weight as 930 kg. or 2046 pounds. That would makes the carriage about 2,917 pounds.

For the Napoleonic Wars, when reducing the weight of a gun carriage was given higher priority then in the previous century:
(Barrel + carriage) (mostly Osprey, Wise and Hook).

British 6 pounder (Field Artillery) : 2,624 pounds
British 6 pounder (Horse Artillery) : 1,652 pounds
British 9 pounder : 2,828 pounds
French 8 pounder : 2,137 pounds
French 12 pounder : 4,364 pounds
and
JJD short 24-pounder : 4,963 pounds

The barrel on the French 12-pounder actually weighed slightly more then on JJD's short 24-pounder, 2,172 pounds. But the carriage weight was 725 pounds more on the short 24-pounder. This is reflective of the time the carriage was initially constructed - George II died in 1760.

JJD's Item Description:

Lieutenant Armstrong was a seven year veteran, and was in command of two brass 24 pdr guns. These were cast as experimental weapons during the reign of George II, and had been sent to Canada during the Revolutionary War. On given the command to open fire, it signaled the start of the battle on the plain.

Weight on Carriage 4963 lbs
Service Life 500-600 rounds in service
Weight of Projectile (Round Shot) 24lbs
Range Round Shot
Theoretical Maximum 2000 yds
Effective Maximum 1000-2000 yds
Favoured Range 800-1000 yds
Canister 600 yds
Effectiveness: Under optimum conditions a 24pdr round shot could penetrate 40 human beings.
Rate of Fire: One Round per minute
 
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Kicked this thread up because of the anticipation of the limber release and some "fun" information.

George Braddock had one of his engineers from the 44th assigned to help in New York at the time of the Battle of the Monongahela, a Captain Willaim Eyre. He was the individual who designed Fort William Henry, defeated the first French attack on Fort William Henry in March 1757, and then commanded the 44th at Ticonderoga (rank of Major or possibly Lt. Colonel by the time of Ticonderoga). I believe, but am unsure, Captain Eyre was at the Battle of Lake George (September 1755) and managed the artillery in the engagement - the British won. He apparently was not on good terms with Abercromby (Ticonderoga).

By July 1755, the British had gathered a sizeable artillery train near Albany with the intention of attacking Fort Frederic on Upper Lake Champlain. Neither Fort William Henry or Fort Carillon (Ticonderoga) would have been constructed yet. The attack on Fort Frederic did not happen.

In a letter to Robert Napier, Eyre comments on the weight of the artillery, all iron pieces. The surprising thing is the two 32-pounders weighed between 4592 and 4928 pounds; while the 18 pounders weighted between 5824-5936 pounds. My guess is these heavy pieces were mounted on garrison carriages (pirate), not field artillery carriages, but unsure. It is my understanding that the barrel and the gun carriage of these heavy guns would be moved separately and then re-assembled when used. I believe that both these 32-pounders burst during the siege of Fort William Henry several years later.

Link to the letter is below, wonderful volume as it relates to Braddock. His fate is mentioned as a footnote at the bottom of the letter.

http://www.archive.org/stream/militaryaffairsi00cumb#page/128/mode/2up
 
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