Broken or repaired K&C??? (1 Viewer)

[fishead19690]

I would like to get a feel for what you guys think about the value of K&C or other figures that have been broken or repaired. Say like a broken bayonet or plume broken off a hat or touched up paint or even a figure that has been converted. I,ve gotten some really good deals on figures that just needed a little touching up or were broken but repairable. I got a collectors club old guard figure for $20 that just had a broken bayonet that i didn,t even notice was broken till i was told. I,ve also had figures arrive damaged that i had to repair. What do you guys think this does to the value? I,m sure some people are still willing to buy these figures and they can be purchased at a discount but you guys being the K&C cult as wellington would put it, how do you guys feel on this subject? Still cash or just trash???

 

[binder001]

Personally, I'm not as hard-core a collector as many here. I AM reluctant to mess up a fine figure that I paid full price for. If I was able to pick up some extra GIs at deep discount becuase they were in a "scratch and dent" pile, then I would consider repairing/converting them. I would understand that they would loose much of their collector value.

 

[jazzeum]

I hate to be a devils advocate here but if somebody sells something and it just had a little chip that was repaired, how do you know and if you can't tell and it's as good as new, where's the harm?

 

[Njja]

I agree, everything has value to someone. As long as you are upfront in your description you could probably easily sell a damaged piece to some of the guys that make up their own figures.
I love the King & Country alloys, I have on occasion straighten pieces bent slightly in shipping. It is very durable, and easily straighted if you are careful.....not at all like my Britians lead figures when I was a kid. With the old britians, one bump and it was off with his head!
By the time I was 12 I had an impressive headless, one legged, one armed army.

Njja

 

[Steven Chong]

I hate to be a devils advocate here but if somebody sells something and it just had a little chip that was repaired, how do you know ... ?

Michigan Toy Soldier sells a black light which they claim can be used to detect repairs and repaints, so there may be a way to find out. If I receive damaged or chipped figures in a new purchase, my dealer has always exchanged them. Like Njja, I would expect a seller to disclose any repairs or repaints.

 

[Louis Badolato]

There's a collector down in Texas, a real gentleman named Ed Poole whom I believe used to be a radiologist or in some way had access to x-ray technology, and from what I understand he always used the x-ray machine to detect repaints, so the black light device might actually work.

 

[Leadmen]

In the Spring 2005 issue of OLD TOY SOLDIER magazine which they gave out at the Chicago Show there is an article about detecting repairs on figures. If figure is rare they suggest like Lou said is get it x-rayed or bring it to a metallurgical lab for a test- could cost $50-100.00.Resin repairs which is not lead will show blank on x-rays. Leadmen - Black lights not that reliable-silver- gold and black colors hard to analyze because of light refraction. Even old orginal red glows most brightly. Hard to detect.

 

[DMNamiot]

Hi guys,

I would say if you get a deal on a soldier that has had, or is in need of a repair and you're happy with it then I say enjoy!

As far as trying to detect repairs if the paint is a good match then you might be in for a hard time.

Hopefully, the dealers and sellers out there will be upfront about this stuff and not try and take you for a ride. But you know what they say about a gift horse right...

Dave

 

[Njja]

Who on earth is buying a figure or figures so valuable they would take it somewhere to get X-rayed?
Have we all lost our minds? Does even Louis with the rare one -of-a -kind items he has take them out to get X-rayed?
If you are buying anything that valuable......and I really don't know what King & Country item has reached that stage of value. Simply buy from someone you know and trust. If you have the resources to hire X-ray specialists you should probably be buying something else.


Njja

 

[Louis Badolato]

For the record, I have never gotten anything x-rayed. However, if I was buying somthing for several thousand dollars like the old Britains or Heyde collectors often do, and its value depended strictly on its being all original, you bet your butt I would get it x-rayed!

 

[Njja]

For the record, I have never gotten anything x-rayed. However, if I was buying somthing for several thousand dollars like the old Britains or Heyde collectors often do, and its value depended strictly on its being all original, you bet your butt I would get it x-rayed!

Interesting, and who would you have X-ray it? And where would their expertise in this product line come from? In my 30+ years in the TCA I have seen and had many items in the tens of thousands of dollars, we have had a bit of counterfeiting, a case in point was a gentleman that contacted top collectors and met them in a diner in New Jersey. He claimed to have worked in the Lionel Factory in Hillside, N.J. and offered rare color proto type cars for sale. After a time, a TCA member that had access to the NASA Jet Propulsion Labratory took some of these cars in for testing. He determined that these were ordinary cars that had been subjected to various baths of different chemicals to alter there color.
No action was ever taken against the individule selling the items, which became famous in there own right, and even more valuable as part of this hoax. Kind of interesting use of the NASA Lab.
My point being, finding an individual with the correct knowledge of the item to be tested and the equiptment would be difficult. I believe Louis once spoke of Andy C. touching up figures damaged in shippment at a large show, sitting in his hotel room I believe. So how could one determine exactly when a figure was touched up? Before it left the factory? by a dealer?
As in the train hobby, your best protection is to know who you are dealing with. Even when you purchase items from famous auction houses you can be duped, look at the problems with even museums getting stuck with fake paintings.
Just my opinion.

Njja

 

[jazzeum]

I have to generally agree with John. Let's not all lose our minds.

For the record, I posted that to get some discussion, not to get everyone crazy. Maybe I need that x ray myself

 

[Louis Badolato]

Andy and King & Country do a lot of repaints and repairs, so, as I said, x-raying has no meaning to K&C figures. However, with old britains and Heyde figures, there is the factory paint, with no touch ups. The x-rays show if there have been touch ups by showing different paint colors. There is a lot of illicit touch ups among old britains and heyde collectors, and you are right, knowing your seller is the best defense. However, I stand by my statement that if I were investing $10,000 in a set of supposedly original untouched up Britains from the turn of the 19th to 20th Century, you bet I would want more than just the seller's word.

 

[DMNamiot]

Hi Guys,

I wish I had that kind of money to burn on this hobby. But like you said if you're going to dump a lot of cash into a turn of the century like new set you best have a way to make sure its legit. But my question is this: How would an x-ray show anything on a lead figure? I thought that lead was the best way to defeat x-rays. I understand that the paints will reflect differently with the older to newer paints due to chemical compound but will the x-ray allow you to detect repaired figures or is there another way? I only ask because I do own some older figures and would be interested to know how to detect repairs or repaints an easier way.

Dave

 

[Njja]

First you would have to find an expert on the subject matter. Perhaps someone at one of the major auction houses could suggest someone. If not you could try Forbes Magazine as Malcom Forbes had one of the finest toy solder collections in the world. If they (an antique toy specialist) didn't have access to the information you required they might know who to contact. Only after acquiring the services of an expert on the field in question could you begin to determine the answers to the questions you pose.
A lot of people forget that these items were originally intended to be childrens toys not rare collectible items. Often production methods, and numbers were not as accurate as you might assume. No one ever expected they would have the kind of interest that has developed. I experienced this early on with Lionel Trains, when I begain collecting them there were no books on the subject. We had no way of determining when, or how many of an item we got in a buy existed. Often we used catalogs we had to determine how many years a particular item had been made.
One interesting point on this subject is Bruce Greenberg now recognized as one of the leading authorities on Lionel Trains & related items. He publishes some of the most highly respected price guides. Bruce used to attend my train shows in a beat up old station wagen selling and buying old Lionel Instruction sheets for .25 each.......now millions look to him to advise them how much their trains are worth. Go Figure!!!

Njja