Camouflage Patterns of German AFV's in WWII (1 Viewer)

[Andanna]

Tank parade in Sennelager 1944:

Probably the reason for all the red on German AFV's - "Menninge" - an industrial anti-corrosion paint (in my opinion too little used on models), possibly with a coat of red-brown:

http://cgi.ebay.com/Built-1-35-Pant...id=p4634.c0.m14.l1262&_trkparms=|293:2|294:30

Lastly, very pale (winter?):

http://cgi.ebay.com/Built-1-35-Sd-K...id=p4634.c0.m14.l1262&_trkparms=|293:3|294:30

 

[Andanna]

Matt Pavone from First Legion got me back into WW II. During my research on German camouflage patterns of WWII AFV's for a new project, I came across a number of (in my opinion) noteworthy photos which I thought I should make available to all members of the forum with an interest in WWII German AFV's. You will find the photos in an new album:

http://www.treefrogtreasures.com/forum/album.php?albumid=441

I have not organized the photos and I am not trying to make a point, except maybe to say that I think we know very little about the actual paints used by the Germans in the field and in the manufacturing sites during WWII. The most serious effort seems to be undertaken presently by Thomas L. Jentz and Hilary L. Doyle (http://www.panzertracts.com/PZfacts.htm).

But here some personal highlights:

Use of a stencil:

The photos most likely used by Minichamps for their Panther model:

 

[Phantom Warrior]

Tank parade in Sennelager 1944:

Probably the reason for all the red on German AFV's - "Menninge" - an industrial anti-corrosion paint (in my opinion too little used on models), possibly with a coat of red-brown:

Late in 1944, the official factory base coat was a dark red primer.

Terry

 

[theBaron]

Very useful for us scale modelers, too!

Danke sehr, Andreas!

 

[Andanna]

Terry is of course right.

I was just wondering whether all parts that were covered with the rust-brown anti-corrosion coating were actually repainted. I think that at least inside the AFV they were not.

 

[Phantom Warrior]

Matt Pavone from First Legion got me back into WW II. During my research on German camouflage patterns of WWII AFV's for a new project, I came across a number of (in my opinion) noteworthy photos which I thought I should make available to all members of the forum with an interest in WWII German AFV's. You will find the photos in an new album:

I have not organized the photos and I am not trying to make a point, except maybe to say that I think we know very little about the actual paints used by the Germans in the field and in the manufacturing sites during WWII. The most serious effort seems to be undertaken presently by Thomas L. Jentz and Hilary L. Doyle (http://www.panzertracts.com/PZfacts.htm).

We actually do know a great deal about German armour camo colours. The most solid info is on the base coat because this was applied at the factory. The disruptive colour, if any, was applied in the field on parts of the AFV over top of the base coat. Unit commanders had some latitude in what disruptive colours were used given the availability of paint colours and local field conditions as to what colours worked best. This was more so later in the war when 2 and 3 colour schemes were the norm. The PATTERN the disruptive colour was applied in was often up to the local commander.

Up to 1939, the factory applied base coat was Anthrazitgrau - a dark coal grey. 1/3 of the vehicle was to be covered in a disruptive colour of Signalbraun, but this was not always done, so some of the AFVs were just dark grey. The signalbraun was so close in colour to the grey, it was very difficult to see the pattern on a dirty tank. But as most AFVs would have had the 2 colours, it would be more accurate to paint models of 1939 armour in the 2 colours.

May - June 1940 was the Fall of France. The order for the base coat to be only Schwartzgrau (to save paint) was not SIGNED until July 1940 so that AFVs invading France were supposed to be 2 colour grey and brown, but due to shortages of paint, some armour did not receive the field applied disruptive brown camo. There is some belief that the signed order merely made official what was already partly in practice. But as most AFVs would have had the 2 colours, it would be more accurate to paint models first half of 1940 armour in the 2 colours. Only the newer AFVs in the invasion of France would have been more likely to be just grey.

However, most armour models are painted only grey by manufacturers and really depict the single grey colour after mid-1940 for the later Ausf models with fewer early Ausfs made by the manufacturers.

Terry

 

[Phantom Warrior]

Terry is of course right.

I was just wondering whether all parts that were covered with the rust-brown anti-corrosion coating were actually repainted. I think that at least inside the AFV they were not.

I am fairly certain the rust brown was the base coat with the official disruptive colours from October 1944 being dunkelgleb and/or Olivgrn , often applied at the factory, and/or schwartzgrau applied in the field.

Terry

 

[fmethorst]

This is a subject I have been studying for some time and I look forward to this discussion.

Here are a few useful web sites:

http://www.panzerworld.net/colours

http://www.matadormodels.co.uk/tank_museum/xcamo_ww2germany.htm

http://www.afrikakorps.org/ralcolors.htm

I recommend this book if this is a subject that interests you:

http://www.auradesign.eu/CCWH_en.htm

...talk more later

 

[Andanna]

We actually do know a great deal about German armour camo colours. The most solid info is on the base coat because this was applied at the factory. The disruptive colour, if any, was applied in the field on parts of the AFV over top of the base coat. Unit commanders had some latitude in what disruptive colours were used given the availability of paint colours and local field conditions as to what colours worked best. This was more so later in the war when 2 and 3 colour schemes were the norm. The PATTERN the disruptive colour was applied in was often up to the local commander.

Up to 1939, the factory applied base coat was Anthrazitgrau - a dark coal grey. 1/3 of the vehicle was to be covered in a disruptive colour of Signalbraun, but this was not always done, so some of the AFVs were just dark grey. The signalbraun was so close in colour to the grey, it was very difficult to see the pattern on a dirty tank. But as most AFVs would have had the 2 colours, it would be more accurate to paint models of 1939 armour in the 2 colours.

May - June 1940 was the Fall of France. The order for the base coat to be only Schwartzgrau (to save paint) was not SIGNED until July 1940 so that AFVs invading France were supposed to be 2 colour grey and brown, but due to shortages of paint, some armour did not receive the field applied disruptive brown camo. There is some belief that the signed order merely made official what was already partly in practice. But as most AFVs would have had the 2 colours, it would be more accurate to paint models first half of 1940 armour in the 2 colours. Only the newer AFVs in the invasion of France would have been more likely to be just grey.

However, most armour models are painted only grey by manufacturers and really depict the single grey colour after mid-1940 for the later Ausf models with fewer early Ausfs made by the manufacturers.

Terry

Terry, there is nothing I disagree with in your post.

For military modelling (and I am a stickler for authenticity), it appears very difficult/impossible to identify the camouflage pattern of an individual vehicle. Further, it seems there is quite some disagreement what DUNKELGRAU, DUNKELGELB or any of the other colors actually looked like.

That is why I came to the conclusion that little is known about German camouflage. And I think the number of publications and continued research indicates that there is still at lot to learn.

But you are of course right when looking at the big picture - although I understand from the Jentz/Doyle article that new German documents from the Central Purchasing department are still being evaluated relating to the use of colors.

 

[Phantom Warrior]

Actually, I am not saying what I mean very clearly. There were plain grey AFVs in Poland and even more in France in 1940. According to Achtung Panzer, Panzer Colors 1934-1945 by George Parada "In late 1939, OKH decided to use only the dark (panzer) grey (RAL 7021) and by mid 1940, it was the only colour used, as it was factory applied." OKH (Oberkommando des Heeres) was Nazi Germany's High Command of the Army from 1936 to 1945. Oberkommando der Wehrmacht (OKW) commanded OKH but politics was involved. .

After 1941, control was split and OKW commanded operations on the Western front while OKH commanded the Eastern front. I believe, but am not swearing, that OKH began using just the panzer grey in 1939 but the official order to do so was not signed by them until July 1940.

History is funny. Sometimes an uncovered official document like the order to use only grey in July 1940 can confuse the issue as it may have only made official what was being done at least partly in practice since 1939. In simple english, entirely panzer grey AFVs in 1939 and especially early 1940 are not wrong.

Terry

 

[binder001]

Terry, there is nothing I disagree with in your post.
For military modelling (and I am a stickler for authenticity), it appears very difficult/impossible to identify the camouflage pattern of an individual vehicle. Further, it seems there is quite some disagreement what DUNKELGRAU, DUNKELGELB or any of the other colors actually looked like.
That is why I came to the conclusion that little is known about German camouflage. And I think the number of publications and continued research indicates that there is still at lot to learn. But you are of course right when looking at the big picture - although I understand from the Jentz/Doyle article that new German documents from the Central Purchasing department are still being evaluated relating to the use of colors.

Research on German vehicles is harder as during part of the war the units/crews were responsible for painting and camouflaging their vehicles. There are all kinds of stories about the different dilutants used with the issued paint paste, which will throw the color off. Obviously you would have to have a good daylight color photo of EVERY German AFV to get all the information.

The German painting approach contrasts with the US Army system. The Army discouraged individual repainting. The tactical painting was to be done by Engineer Camouflage Battalions (1 per field army). It is well known that the 1945 "whitewash" finishes were done by crews or units, but for camouflage painting the Engineers had the spray guns and paints.

Gary

 

[Phantom Warrior]

Research on German vehicles is harder as during part of the war the units/crews were responsible for painting and camouflaging their vehicles. There are all kinds of stories about the different dilutants used with the issued paint paste, which will throw the color off. Obviously you would have to have a good daylight color photo of EVERY German AFV to get all the information.

The German painting approach contrasts with the US Army system. The Army discouraged individual repainting. The tactical painting was to be done by Engineer Camouflage Battalions (1 per field army). It is well known that the 1945 "whitewash" finishes were done by crews or units, but for camouflage painting the Engineers had the spray guns and paints.

Gary

That pretty much sums it up. There were general rules and standards for German AFVs but with lots of variation. US tanks in Europe were olive green with or without black (or dark brown?) disruptive camo colour. Not much variation there.

Terry

 

[fmethorst]

While the period between Feb. '43 - Aug. '44 is certainly a time during which every vehicle had a unique camouflage paint scheme (pattern and to a lesser extent color) I believe we can put certain constraints around the variation. The regulations regarding the colors were specific, RAL7028 base color applied at the factory with RAL6003 (Green) and RAL8017 (Brown) supplied to the maintenance units to be applied to suit conditions. Yes the green and brown were supplied as paste, and yes they were diluted and applied in a variety of fashions which would have resulted in a certain amount of variation in saturation and possibly hue. I'm sure that on occasion non regulation plaint was utilized as well simply because it was available where the standard paints were not. That said I feel that in general terms we can pin down with reasonable accuracy what the colors utilized during this period looked like. There are certainly photographs of numerous pieces of equipment where the brown and green camouflage paint match up very well with the RAL8017 and RAL6003 in the current RAL840-HR register. This register is a 1961 revision of the RAL840-R register which dates back to the 1930s. The RAL840-R register is the one that applied during the war. Many people argue that the current RAL840-HR cannot be used due to the revisions. For instance wartime colors such as RAL7028 and RAL8020 were dropped from the register. In addition the colors were given supplemental names to avoid confusion in case of transposed digits. That said I cannot find evidence to support that hues of colors that exist in both registers were modified. If that was the case it would kind of defeat the purpose of standards.

As for late war factory paint schemes, these were far more standardized in both pattern and color. In most cases the brown and green appear darker due to a heavier more even appllication at the factory. Another change is the sharper edges between the different color fields. Field applied camouflage often had fuzzy edges between fields.

As already noted there were also regulations stating that the base coat should be left as primer (Oxirot) which is RAL8012. This was followed by a regulation stating that green RAL6003 should be the base color and finally everything was switched back to RAL7028 for the base color. Regulations weren't always followed so just because a decision was made to switch the base color to green doesn't mean factory X would suddenly switch. A lot depended on the availability of the various colors.

Here is a nice sequence of pictures showing the maintenance unit of s.H.Pz.Abt.503 applying camouflage over the Dunkelgelb basecoat

Various factory paint schemes on Panthers. You can see a darker (RAL8017) and slightly lighter (RAL6003) camouflage color applied over the Dunkelgelb basecoat.

A couple color pictures after the war in the States. It is unclear if these are repaints. If they are they look pretty authentic.

While the color of this Tiger II picture isn't very good the colors visble match up well with those specified by the regulations.

This Jagdpanther appears to have the primer RAL8012 basecoat with Dunkelgelb RAL7028 stripes applied over top.

Some of the colors in question:

 

[Phantom Warrior]

While the period between Feb. '43 - Aug. '44 is certainly a time during which every vehicle had a unique camouflage paint scheme (pattern and to a lesser extent color) I believe we can put certain constraints around the variation. The regulations regarding the colors were specific, RAL7028 base color applied at the factory with RAL6003 (Green) and RAL8017 (Brown) supplied to the maintenance units to be applied to suit conditions. Yes the green and brown were supplied as paste, and yes they were diluted and applied in a variety of fashions which would have resulted in a certain amount of variation in saturation and possibly hue. I'm sure that on occasion non regulation plaint was utilized as well simply because it was available where the standard paints were not. That said I feel that in general terms we can pin down with reasonable accuracy what the colors utilized during this period looked like. There are certainly photographs of numerous pieces of equipment where the brown and green camouflage paint match up very well with the RAL8017 and RAL6003 in the current RAL840-HR register. This register is a 1961 revision of the RAL840-R register which dates back to the 1930s. The RAL840-R register is the one that applied during the war. Many people argue that the current RAL840-HR cannot be used due to the revisions. For instance wartime colors such as RAL7028 and RAL8020 were dropped from the register. In addition the colors were given supplemental names to avoid confusion in case of transposed digits. That said I cannot find evidence to support that hues of colors that exist in both registers were modified. If that was the case it would kind of defeat the purpose of standards.

As for late war factory paint schemes, these were far more standardized in both pattern and color. In most cases the brown and green appear darker due to a heavier more even appllication at the factory. Another change is the sharper edges between the different color fields. Field applied camouflage often had fuzzy edges between fields.

As already noted there were also regulations stating that the base coat should be left as primer (Oxirot) which is RAL8012. This was followed by a regulation stating that green RAL6003 should be the base color and finally everything was switched back to RAL7028 for the base color. Regulations weren't always followed so just because a decision was made to switch the base color to green doesn't mean factory X would suddenly switch. A lot depended on the availability of the various colors.

Here is a nice sequence of pictures showing the maintenance unit of s.H.Pz.Abt.503 applying camouflage over the Dunkelgelb basecoat

Excellent post - good summary better than I was able to make clear. And the photos of the Tiger being spray painted are ones I had not seen before.

Terry

 

[Andanna]

May - June 1940 was the Fall of France. The order for the base coat to be only Schwartzgrau (to save paint) was not SIGNED until July 1940 so that AFVs invading France were supposed to be 2 colour grey and brown, but due to shortages of paint, some armour did not receive the field applied disruptive brown camo. There is some belief that the signed order merely made official what was already partly in practice. But as most AFVs would have had the 2 colours, it would be more accurate to paint models first half of 1940 armour in the 2 colours. Only the newer AFVs in the invasion of France would have been more likely to be just grey.

However, most armour models are painted only grey by manufacturers and really depict the single grey colour after mid-1940 for the later Ausf models with fewer early Ausfs made by the manufacturers.

Terry

Just an example of my difficulties (which I am certain I share with many modellers). This may be a little detailed, but it preoccupies me right now and maybe I can have some expert opinion:

On a photo of an initial production Tiger I in Sennelager (hence prior to delivery to Russia, August 1942), the tank appears to have been painted in two colors (see p. 15 of Restayn's Tiger I on the Eastern Front). This vehicle is the command vehicle with the number 100.

Of the four Tigers of this unit (s.Pz.Abt. 502), No. 111 is supposed to be painted as follows:

Tiger tank #111. In the vicinity of Mga, September 1942. The vehicle is repainted in lighter gray RAL 7005 Mausgrau over first coat of darker gray RAL 7021 Schwarzgrau.
Source: http://www.aviapress.com/viewonekit.htm?FRI-022

while vehicle number 112 is supposed to be painted "The camouflage is simply green on a grey base." according to p. 15 of Restayn's Tiger I on the Eastern Front.

Tank #100 became famous as the first Tiger that fell into Russian hands and of which therefore exist a very large amount of photos - they all appear to show a plain dark grey tank:

More photos:

http://www.aviapress.com/viewonekit.htm?FRI-022

This raises a number of questions: assuming #100 was painted in production - would the second color be dark brown (see post above)? Why do all the Russian pictures show a grey tank? Could the photo of the pre-delivery tank be technically "defective" and misleading?

Irrespective of the outcome of the above question: Do you really have a brand new unit in 1942 with four vehicles of which at least three appear to all have different paint schemes?

Does the term "repainted" mean that in the summer of 1942, units in the field individually repainted their vehicles with another coat of grey (possibly because they had a spare can sitting around)?


Good luck with that one.

 

[Phantom Warrior]

Just an example of my difficulties (which I am certain I share with many modellers). This may be a little detailed, but it preoccupies me right now and maybe I can have some expert opinion:

On a photo of an initial production Tiger I in Sennelager (hence prior to delivery to Russia, August 1942), the tank appears to have been painted in two colors (see p. 15 of Restayn's Tiger I on the Eastern Front). This vehicle is the command vehicle with the number 100.

Of the four Tigers of this unit (s.Pz.Abt. 502), No. 111 is supposed to be painted as follows:

Tiger tank #111. In the vicinity of Mga, September 1942. The vehicle is repainted in lighter gray RAL 7005 Mausgrau over first coat of darker gray RAL 7021 Schwarzgrau.
Source: http://www.aviapress.com/viewonekit.htm?FRI-022

while vehicle number 112 is supposed to be painted "The camouflage is simply green on a grey base." according to p. 15 of Restayn's Tiger I on the Eastern Front.

Tank #100 became famous as the first Tiger that fell into Russian hands and of which therefore exist a very large amount of photos - they all appear to show a plain dark grey tank:

More photos:

http://www.aviapress.com/viewonekit.htm?FRI-022

This raises a number of questions: assuming #100 was painted in production - would the second color be dark brown (see post above)? Why do all the Russian pictures show a grey tank? Could the photo of the pre-delivery tank be technically "defective" and misleading?

Irrespective of the outcome of the above question: Do you really have a brand new unit in 1942 with four vehicles of which at least three appear to all have different paint schemes?

Does the term "repainted" mean that in the summer of 1942, units in the field individually repainted their vehicles with another coat of grey (possibly because they had a spare can sitting around)?


Good luck with that one.

Quick answer - Tigers were special - they were formed into their own unit (s.Pz.Abt. xxx). 3 different paint schemes, all on a factory applied schwartgrau base coat is possible . As for repainting, likely not the schwartzgrau base coat but only the disruptive colour(s).

Terry

 

[Phantom Warrior]

Can you believe with all the reading I have done on WW2 camo colours and paint schemes, I cannot choose a colour to put on the walls of my own house?

Terry

 

[Andanna]

Can you believe with all the reading I have done on WW2 camo colours and paint schemes, I cannot choose a colour to put on the walls of my own house?

Terry

Quick answer: Schwarzgrau.

It is a good base color for any additional furnishings you might want to add later. And do not forget the ceiling!

There is a wonderful German movie where a therapist (?) comes into a house of a couple whose favorite colors are ash-grey, mouse-grey, dark grey and black. After therapy, they convert to a very colorful style, but get divorced because the choice of colors has become so overwhelming that they cannot agree on the colors for the interior design.

Therefore: Schwarzgrau is a pretty safe bet.

 

[Phantom Warrior]

Quick answer: Schwarzgrau.

It is a good base color for any additional furnishings you might want to add later. And do not forget the ceiling!

There is a wonderful German movie where a therapist (?) comes into a house of a couple whose favorite colors are ash-grey, mouse-grey, dark grey and black. After therapy, they convert to a very colorful style, but get divorced because the choice of colors has become so overwhelming that they cannot agree on the colors for the interior design.

Therefore: Schwarzgrau is a pretty safe bet.

Sorry. NOT helpful. The colours need better descriptives like ocean mist, dandilion, warm avacado, etc

Terry

 

[fmethorst]

Just an example of my difficulties (which I am certain I share with many modellers). This may be a little detailed, but it preoccupies me right now and maybe I can have some expert opinion:

On a photo of an initial production Tiger I in Sennelager (hence prior to delivery to Russia, August 1942), the tank appears to have been painted in two colors (see p. 15 of Restayn's Tiger I on the Eastern Front). This vehicle is the command vehicle with the number 100.

Of the four Tigers of this unit (s.Pz.Abt. 502), No. 111 is supposed to be painted as follows:

Tiger tank #111. In the vicinity of Mga, September 1942. The vehicle is repainted in lighter gray RAL 7005 Mausgrau over first coat of darker gray RAL 7021 Schwarzgrau.
Source: http://www.aviapress.com/viewonekit.htm?FRI-022

while vehicle number 112 is supposed to be painted "The camouflage is simply green on a grey base." according to p. 15 of Restayn's Tiger I on the Eastern Front.

Tank #100 became famous as the first Tiger that fell into Russian hands and of which therefore exist a very large amount of photos - they all appear to show a plain dark grey tank:

More photos:

http://www.aviapress.com/viewonekit.htm?FRI-022

This raises a number of questions: assuming #100 was painted in production - would the second color be dark brown (see post above)? Why do all the Russian pictures show a grey tank? Could the photo of the pre-delivery tank be technically "defective" and misleading?

Irrespective of the outcome of the above question: Do you really have a brand new unit in 1942 with four vehicles of which at least three appear to all have different paint schemes?

Does the term "repainted" mean that in the summer of 1942, units in the field individually repainted their vehicles with another coat of grey (possibly because they had a spare can sitting around)?


Good luck with that one.

There is simply too much conflicting information to provide a definitive answer. Considering the lack of citations for the captions stating the application of non standard colors (green, mouse grey) I am a little skeptical.

What if it is something as simple as dust?

Check out this picture of Tiger 111. The underlying paint is definitely covered with something but if it is paint then the exhausts, unit emblem and balkenkreuz were oversprayed.

Here is another picture of Tiger 111 taken later.