tank
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[Quote Originally Posted by Rutledge View Post
Ok, sure thing Big ‘un. But you see, hoss, 26 million dead means Russia lost more killed than every other country - combined. Thus, based on that metric, Russia actually lost the war.[
It would be great to hear your opinion and have your comments
If you don’t have anythig to say about the theme please do not post any rubbish.
Thanks.
Serge.
Estimation of the ratio of losses on the Soviet-German and Western fronts
10/05/2010
The process of revising the role of the participants in the anti-Hitler coalition in the victory over fascist Germany is also associated with a change in the balance of power in the international arena. Not only in modern media, but also in a number of historical works, old myths are supported, or new myths are created. The old ones include the opinion that the Soviet Union achieved victory only thanks to innumerable losses, many times exceeding the losses of the enemy, and to the new ones - the decisive role of Western countries, mainly the United States, in victory and the high level of their military skill. To substantiate their point of view, the authors rely on published statistical materials, which are sometimes contradictory. So, the famous Soviet demographer, B. Ts. Urlanis, refers to the studies of Padover, who, analyzing the German losses, found that “almost three quarters of all the dead are dead on the Russian front” [1]. Even in Soviet historiography it was accepted that the contribution of the Allies to the victory was 20-25% of the total number of German casualties. For example, the book “The Great Patriotic War of the Soviet Union 1941-1945”, published by the USSR Ministry of Defense, states that “The Soviet Armed Forces during the war destroyed, captured or defeated 506.5 German divisions. In addition, 100 German satellite divisions were defeated. The allies defeated no more than 176 divisions in Western Europe, North Africa and Italy. ”[2] Thus, the share of divisions defeated on the Soviet-German front is 78%. But one cannot agree with such estimates. “The Second World War was waged with terrible destruction and with inhuman tension of all forces only on the Eastern Front, and only two states - the Soviet Union and the German Reich - paid in all its accounts ... It is clear that our - Russian and Soviet - attitude to this the holiday (Victory - aut.) can not be shared by citizens of those countries for which the material disasters of the war were reduced to the lack of coffee on the market. ”[3]
As a criterion for assessing losses, it is customary to use summary data, such as, for example, the losses of the parties for the entire war, or the number of defeated divisions, which, due to their simplicity and clarity, confirm this or that point of view. It seems to us that in order to select from the available data those that you can rely on with a significant degree of reliability, it is necessary to use specific values in addition to the total values. Such values may include losses per unit time, for example, daily; losses attributable to a certain section of the front length, etc.
The team of authors under the leadership of Colonel General G. F. Krivosheev in 1988-1993. A comprehensive statistical study of archival documents and other materials containing information about human casualties in the army and navy, border and internal troops of the NKVD was conducted. The results of this major study were published in the work "Russia and the USSR in the wars of the twentieth century." We will rely on the results of this study.
During the Great Patriotic War, 34 million people were called up to the Red Army, including those drafted in June 1941. This amount is almost equal to the mobilization resource that the country had at that time. The losses of the Soviet Union in the Great Patriotic War, of course, are very large, and amounted to 11,273 thousand people, that is, a third of the number called up. Table 1 presents the irreparable loss of personnel of the Red Army for the years of World War II. [4] This includes those who are killed, missing, captured, and perished in captivity.
Table 1. The losses of the Red Army on the Soviet-German front
Years Duration of the period (days) Anual losses (thousand people Daily losses (people)
1941 - 193 - 3 138 - 16 300
1942 - 365 - 3 258 - 8 900
1943 - 365 - 2 312 - 6,400
1944 - 366 - 1,764 - 4 800
1945 - 129 - 801- 6,200
Total for the Great Patriotic War
1,418 - 11,273 - 8,000
The last column of the proposed table shows the average daily losses incurred by the Red Army. In 1941, they were the highest, since our troops had to retreat in very unfavorable conditions, and large formations were surrounded, in the so-called boilers. In 1942, the losses were much smaller, although the Red Army also had to retreat, but there were no large boilers. In 1943, there were very stubborn battles, especially on the Kursk, but from this year until the end of the war, troops of fascist Germany had to retreat. In 1944, the Soviet High Command planned and carried out a number of brilliant strategic operations to defeat and encircle entire groups of German armies, so the losses of the Red Army are relatively small. But in 1945, the daily losses increased again, because the stubbornness of the German army increased, since it had already fought on its territory, and German soldiers courageously defended their homeland.
Unfortunately, we do not have the same detailed picture of the losses of Germany and its allies on the Soviet-German front. But we have enough data to outline a fairly complete picture. On the fronts of World War II, the armed forces of fascist Germany itself lost 7,181 thousand, and the armed forces of its allies - 1,468 thousand people, a total of 8,649 thousand. [5] According to the chief of the German General Staff F. Halder, in 1941-1942. the fascist army daily lost about 3 600 soldiers and officers, [6] therefore, in the first two years of the war, the losses of the fascist bloc amounted to about two million people. This means that over time, the loss of Germany and its allies amounted to about 6 650 thousand people. Based on these data, as well as the data shown in Table 1, we can compile the following table.
Table 2. The losses of the Germany on the Soviet-German front
Period period duration ( days) Losses (million people) daily losses (people)
1941-1942: 558 - 2.0 - 3,600
1943-1945 : 860 - 6.65 - 7,700
1941-1945 : 1418 - 8.65 - 6 100
Thus, the ratio of losses on the Soviet-German front turns out to be equal to 13:10, that is, 10 German soldiers account for 13 killed, missing, wounded, captured Soviet soldiers. Over time, the ratio of losses changed, and if in the period 1941-1942. 10 German soldiers accounted for 32 Soviet, then, starting from 1943 until the end of the war, 10 German soldiers were 14 German. Noteworthy is the fact that the daily losses of the Red Army over time have halved from 11,500 to 5,700, and the German doubled from 3,600 to 7,700. These simple statistics clearly and objectively characterize the quality of driving troops and the degree of respect for soldiers. We give the opinion of high military authority - General A.I. Denikin.
Opinion of General A.I. Denikin is especially important for us because he received a deep and comprehensive education at the Imperial Academy of the General Staff, had his own wealth of combat experience, acquired in the Russo-Japanese, World War I and Civil Wars. His opinion is also important because, while remaining an ardent patriot of Russia, he was and until the end of his life remained a consistent enemy of Bolshevism, so you can rely on the impartiality of his assessment.
Ok, sure thing Big ‘un. But you see, hoss, 26 million dead means Russia lost more killed than every other country - combined. Thus, based on that metric, Russia actually lost the war.[
It would be great to hear your opinion and have your comments
If you don’t have anythig to say about the theme please do not post any rubbish.
Thanks.
Serge.
Estimation of the ratio of losses on the Soviet-German and Western fronts
10/05/2010
The process of revising the role of the participants in the anti-Hitler coalition in the victory over fascist Germany is also associated with a change in the balance of power in the international arena. Not only in modern media, but also in a number of historical works, old myths are supported, or new myths are created. The old ones include the opinion that the Soviet Union achieved victory only thanks to innumerable losses, many times exceeding the losses of the enemy, and to the new ones - the decisive role of Western countries, mainly the United States, in victory and the high level of their military skill. To substantiate their point of view, the authors rely on published statistical materials, which are sometimes contradictory. So, the famous Soviet demographer, B. Ts. Urlanis, refers to the studies of Padover, who, analyzing the German losses, found that “almost three quarters of all the dead are dead on the Russian front” [1]. Even in Soviet historiography it was accepted that the contribution of the Allies to the victory was 20-25% of the total number of German casualties. For example, the book “The Great Patriotic War of the Soviet Union 1941-1945”, published by the USSR Ministry of Defense, states that “The Soviet Armed Forces during the war destroyed, captured or defeated 506.5 German divisions. In addition, 100 German satellite divisions were defeated. The allies defeated no more than 176 divisions in Western Europe, North Africa and Italy. ”[2] Thus, the share of divisions defeated on the Soviet-German front is 78%. But one cannot agree with such estimates. “The Second World War was waged with terrible destruction and with inhuman tension of all forces only on the Eastern Front, and only two states - the Soviet Union and the German Reich - paid in all its accounts ... It is clear that our - Russian and Soviet - attitude to this the holiday (Victory - aut.) can not be shared by citizens of those countries for which the material disasters of the war were reduced to the lack of coffee on the market. ”[3]
As a criterion for assessing losses, it is customary to use summary data, such as, for example, the losses of the parties for the entire war, or the number of defeated divisions, which, due to their simplicity and clarity, confirm this or that point of view. It seems to us that in order to select from the available data those that you can rely on with a significant degree of reliability, it is necessary to use specific values in addition to the total values. Such values may include losses per unit time, for example, daily; losses attributable to a certain section of the front length, etc.
The team of authors under the leadership of Colonel General G. F. Krivosheev in 1988-1993. A comprehensive statistical study of archival documents and other materials containing information about human casualties in the army and navy, border and internal troops of the NKVD was conducted. The results of this major study were published in the work "Russia and the USSR in the wars of the twentieth century." We will rely on the results of this study.
During the Great Patriotic War, 34 million people were called up to the Red Army, including those drafted in June 1941. This amount is almost equal to the mobilization resource that the country had at that time. The losses of the Soviet Union in the Great Patriotic War, of course, are very large, and amounted to 11,273 thousand people, that is, a third of the number called up. Table 1 presents the irreparable loss of personnel of the Red Army for the years of World War II. [4] This includes those who are killed, missing, captured, and perished in captivity.
Table 1. The losses of the Red Army on the Soviet-German front
Years Duration of the period (days) Anual losses (thousand people Daily losses (people)
1941 - 193 - 3 138 - 16 300
1942 - 365 - 3 258 - 8 900
1943 - 365 - 2 312 - 6,400
1944 - 366 - 1,764 - 4 800
1945 - 129 - 801- 6,200
Total for the Great Patriotic War
1,418 - 11,273 - 8,000
The last column of the proposed table shows the average daily losses incurred by the Red Army. In 1941, they were the highest, since our troops had to retreat in very unfavorable conditions, and large formations were surrounded, in the so-called boilers. In 1942, the losses were much smaller, although the Red Army also had to retreat, but there were no large boilers. In 1943, there were very stubborn battles, especially on the Kursk, but from this year until the end of the war, troops of fascist Germany had to retreat. In 1944, the Soviet High Command planned and carried out a number of brilliant strategic operations to defeat and encircle entire groups of German armies, so the losses of the Red Army are relatively small. But in 1945, the daily losses increased again, because the stubbornness of the German army increased, since it had already fought on its territory, and German soldiers courageously defended their homeland.
Unfortunately, we do not have the same detailed picture of the losses of Germany and its allies on the Soviet-German front. But we have enough data to outline a fairly complete picture. On the fronts of World War II, the armed forces of fascist Germany itself lost 7,181 thousand, and the armed forces of its allies - 1,468 thousand people, a total of 8,649 thousand. [5] According to the chief of the German General Staff F. Halder, in 1941-1942. the fascist army daily lost about 3 600 soldiers and officers, [6] therefore, in the first two years of the war, the losses of the fascist bloc amounted to about two million people. This means that over time, the loss of Germany and its allies amounted to about 6 650 thousand people. Based on these data, as well as the data shown in Table 1, we can compile the following table.
Table 2. The losses of the Germany on the Soviet-German front
Period period duration ( days) Losses (million people) daily losses (people)
1941-1942: 558 - 2.0 - 3,600
1943-1945 : 860 - 6.65 - 7,700
1941-1945 : 1418 - 8.65 - 6 100
Thus, the ratio of losses on the Soviet-German front turns out to be equal to 13:10, that is, 10 German soldiers account for 13 killed, missing, wounded, captured Soviet soldiers. Over time, the ratio of losses changed, and if in the period 1941-1942. 10 German soldiers accounted for 32 Soviet, then, starting from 1943 until the end of the war, 10 German soldiers were 14 German. Noteworthy is the fact that the daily losses of the Red Army over time have halved from 11,500 to 5,700, and the German doubled from 3,600 to 7,700. These simple statistics clearly and objectively characterize the quality of driving troops and the degree of respect for soldiers. We give the opinion of high military authority - General A.I. Denikin.
Opinion of General A.I. Denikin is especially important for us because he received a deep and comprehensive education at the Imperial Academy of the General Staff, had his own wealth of combat experience, acquired in the Russo-Japanese, World War I and Civil Wars. His opinion is also important because, while remaining an ardent patriot of Russia, he was and until the end of his life remained a consistent enemy of Bolshevism, so you can rely on the impartiality of his assessment.
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