(PART 1 of 2)
I originally wrote this post in response to the price increase thread, which was closed just after I submitted this. I hope the mods will allow me to post this in a separate thread b/c I it raises a larger issue in what hopefully is a polite and respectful matter. Also, it took me about an hour to write & I will bash my head in if that time was spent completely in vain
I tried to stay out of the price increase thread for as long as possible but two things changed that. First, a couple of posts irked me enough to finally speak up. But I would have let them slide (especially when the thread was closed) if I didn't think that there was a separate but related issue that was worth exploring, and could be done in a positive matter.
Namely, that while price increases are a legitimate issue, they are just one way in which K&C, and by extension, the hobby is trying to survive in difficult times. But ultimately, the only way for them to thrive is by expanding the number and type of people in this hobby in a significant way.
In order to get to that point, I feel I do need to go back to a couple things that were said in the price increase thread.
The first was this:
This is a refrain that I've heard before, so I don't mean to direct any of my objections personally at you, toy4x4.
But whether you say it, or Andy says it, or whoever...the implication seems to be that everyone should shut up and not complain or criticize K&C, whether it's about price or quality or anything else.
This is a public forum, and it seems to me the point here is to be able to discuss this hobby and express their opinions. I would never tell people not to be critical of K&C, just as I wouldn't tell someone to stop heaping praise on particular product, even if it weren't my cup of tea.
This is coming from someone, by the way, who primarily praises Andy and K&C and has backed those sentiments up by putting my money where my mouth is. I give Andy the benefit of the doubt when it comes to his business practices.
What I guess gets my ire up a bit is that, in my opinion, everyone that was been complaining about prices here has done so in a civil manner. Despite assertions to the contrary, I don't feel ANYONE has even come close to suggesting a boycott. They've merely stated how they plan to spend their money. I don't feel like they deserve to be silenced.
(By the same token, I think most of the other side of the debate has been conducted civilly as well. I wouldn't dream of saying "If you don't like the complaints, don't read them.")
On to the next quote that I felt I should respond to, followed by what I hope is a valid substantive point about K&C and the toy soldier hobby's future.
With all due respect Rutledge, I don't think anyone has claimed that Andy was motivated by greed, let alone meanness. It does a disservice to our fellow posters to suggest otherwise.
A couple things here.
Does anyone really view the post is that thread as an attempt at collective bargaining? These aren't workers asking for health benefits or pensions...these are consumers saying that they aren't happy with the pricing of a product, and saying they might change their buying habits as a result.
Without wanting to get into a political debate, the union bashing in some of these posts also seems a little out of line. Forget the merits or demerits of unions...saying one "loathes" them is a reductionist comment. It's as silly as suggesting all corporations are evil. More importantly...it doesn't really have any bearing on K&C's pricing, let alone Toy Soldiers. I'd imagine it was talk like that and both sides that got the last thread shut down.
As for this not happening in another industry, I don't have the business experience that many here seem to, so I can only speak about the industry I'm in, which I think is quite similar.
As I've posted here before, I'm a writer, primarily of comic books. Like Toy Soldiers, it's an entertainment/luxury item. And, in the past few years, we've seen the physical quality go up (paper stock, digital coloring etc.), and the prices shoot up as the economy tanked.
Comics have come a long way from 25 cents when I was a kid, and cost $2.99 on average up until the past year, until they jumped to $3.99. People always complained about rising prices, but it didn't seem to affect the industry until the latest price jump. Then there was a big backlash, particularly but not exclusively on the internet*
Then the chorus got louder, sales took a major hit, and now publishers are having to roll back prices. I'm both a reader and a creator, so I have mixed feelings (I wish prices were cut a bit less and I got paid a bit more....so I could buy more toy soldiers.
I doubt it was the complaints themselves that caused the rollback. More likely, it was an actual change in buying habits, plus feedback from retailers.
What seems more unusual to me than consumers complaining is the response of manufacturers in the Toy Soldier hobby. I can't imagine a publisher saying "if you don't like our prices, don't buy our comics". Forget comics for a second. Can you imagine a car manufacturer saying that about price or in reference to a product defect?
I realize in both my examples we are dealing with large, publicly owned corporations, while most if not all TS manufacturers are privately held small businesses. But I think the comparison is still valid.
To get back to the price increases, again let me state that I believe Andy when he says that they are due to rising labor costs. I don't like the fact TS are more expensive, and I will most likely be cutting back as a result.
That's not a threat, and I don't expect K&C or anyone else to cut prices for me. But I'd imagine that if people truly cut their purchases back it will hurt retailers and manufacturers and there will be some changes (as always, I imagine the little guys will get hit the hardest).
(For me...I jumped into this hobby a little too deeply, and find myself with a collection that has strained my budget and storage capacity. I'm selling off some items for less than what I paid so that I can continue to afford and have room for products that continue to impress me. I"m trying to become a smarter shopper and collector, but in the meantime I've had to sell things for a loss and will have to likely resist some very tempting offerings from K&C and others.)
There's a larger issue here that not many have touched on - the long term health of the hobby. And again, I see comics as a useful comparison.
For this hobby to continue, it needs to bring new customers/collectors in as it services the needs of its current base. High prices are a barrier of entry that makes expanding the current base even harder.
This is especially true when you look at the demographics. I'm not privy to any industry statistics. But having attended shows it seems clear to me that most collectors are white males in their 40s or older. There is nothing wrong with that, and it's what I imagine is an attractive demo - guys with high incomes with increasing discretionary spending as their children move out and retirement approaches.
But...as this base ages, they are likely to have less, not more money to spend on the hobby. You are going to need someone to replace the Baby Boomers, and I see no evidence of this.
(CONTINUED)
I originally wrote this post in response to the price increase thread, which was closed just after I submitted this. I hope the mods will allow me to post this in a separate thread b/c I it raises a larger issue in what hopefully is a polite and respectful matter. Also, it took me about an hour to write & I will bash my head in if that time was spent completely in vain
I tried to stay out of the price increase thread for as long as possible but two things changed that. First, a couple of posts irked me enough to finally speak up. But I would have let them slide (especially when the thread was closed) if I didn't think that there was a separate but related issue that was worth exploring, and could be done in a positive matter.
Namely, that while price increases are a legitimate issue, they are just one way in which K&C, and by extension, the hobby is trying to survive in difficult times. But ultimately, the only way for them to thrive is by expanding the number and type of people in this hobby in a significant way.
In order to get to that point, I feel I do need to go back to a couple things that were said in the price increase thread.
The first was this:
This is a refrain that I've heard before, so I don't mean to direct any of my objections personally at you, toy4x4.
But whether you say it, or Andy says it, or whoever...the implication seems to be that everyone should shut up and not complain or criticize K&C, whether it's about price or quality or anything else.
This is a public forum, and it seems to me the point here is to be able to discuss this hobby and express their opinions. I would never tell people not to be critical of K&C, just as I wouldn't tell someone to stop heaping praise on particular product, even if it weren't my cup of tea.
This is coming from someone, by the way, who primarily praises Andy and K&C and has backed those sentiments up by putting my money where my mouth is. I give Andy the benefit of the doubt when it comes to his business practices.
What I guess gets my ire up a bit is that, in my opinion, everyone that was been complaining about prices here has done so in a civil manner. Despite assertions to the contrary, I don't feel ANYONE has even come close to suggesting a boycott. They've merely stated how they plan to spend their money. I don't feel like they deserve to be silenced.
(By the same token, I think most of the other side of the debate has been conducted civilly as well. I wouldn't dream of saying "If you don't like the complaints, don't read them.")
On to the next quote that I felt I should respond to, followed by what I hope is a valid substantive point about K&C and the toy soldier hobby's future.
With all due respect Rutledge, I don't think anyone has claimed that Andy was motivated by greed, let alone meanness. It does a disservice to our fellow posters to suggest otherwise.
A couple things here.
Does anyone really view the post is that thread as an attempt at collective bargaining? These aren't workers asking for health benefits or pensions...these are consumers saying that they aren't happy with the pricing of a product, and saying they might change their buying habits as a result.
Without wanting to get into a political debate, the union bashing in some of these posts also seems a little out of line. Forget the merits or demerits of unions...saying one "loathes" them is a reductionist comment. It's as silly as suggesting all corporations are evil. More importantly...it doesn't really have any bearing on K&C's pricing, let alone Toy Soldiers. I'd imagine it was talk like that and both sides that got the last thread shut down.
As for this not happening in another industry, I don't have the business experience that many here seem to, so I can only speak about the industry I'm in, which I think is quite similar.
As I've posted here before, I'm a writer, primarily of comic books. Like Toy Soldiers, it's an entertainment/luxury item. And, in the past few years, we've seen the physical quality go up (paper stock, digital coloring etc.), and the prices shoot up as the economy tanked.
Comics have come a long way from 25 cents when I was a kid, and cost $2.99 on average up until the past year, until they jumped to $3.99. People always complained about rising prices, but it didn't seem to affect the industry until the latest price jump. Then there was a big backlash, particularly but not exclusively on the internet*
Then the chorus got louder, sales took a major hit, and now publishers are having to roll back prices. I'm both a reader and a creator, so I have mixed feelings (I wish prices were cut a bit less and I got paid a bit more....so I could buy more toy soldiers
.I doubt it was the complaints themselves that caused the rollback. More likely, it was an actual change in buying habits, plus feedback from retailers.
What seems more unusual to me than consumers complaining is the response of manufacturers in the Toy Soldier hobby. I can't imagine a publisher saying "if you don't like our prices, don't buy our comics". Forget comics for a second. Can you imagine a car manufacturer saying that about price or in reference to a product defect?
I realize in both my examples we are dealing with large, publicly owned corporations, while most if not all TS manufacturers are privately held small businesses. But I think the comparison is still valid.
To get back to the price increases, again let me state that I believe Andy when he says that they are due to rising labor costs. I don't like the fact TS are more expensive, and I will most likely be cutting back as a result.
That's not a threat, and I don't expect K&C or anyone else to cut prices for me. But I'd imagine that if people truly cut their purchases back it will hurt retailers and manufacturers and there will be some changes (as always, I imagine the little guys will get hit the hardest).
(For me...I jumped into this hobby a little too deeply, and find myself with a collection that has strained my budget and storage capacity. I'm selling off some items for less than what I paid so that I can continue to afford and have room for products that continue to impress me. I"m trying to become a smarter shopper and collector, but in the meantime I've had to sell things for a loss and will have to likely resist some very tempting offerings from K&C and others.)
There's a larger issue here that not many have touched on - the long term health of the hobby. And again, I see comics as a useful comparison.
For this hobby to continue, it needs to bring new customers/collectors in as it services the needs of its current base. High prices are a barrier of entry that makes expanding the current base even harder.
This is especially true when you look at the demographics. I'm not privy to any industry statistics. But having attended shows it seems clear to me that most collectors are white males in their 40s or older. There is nothing wrong with that, and it's what I imagine is an attractive demo - guys with high incomes with increasing discretionary spending as their children move out and retirement approaches.
But...as this base ages, they are likely to have less, not more money to spend on the hobby. You are going to need someone to replace the Baby Boomers, and I see no evidence of this.
(CONTINUED)
