France and World War II (1 Viewer)

[redhugh]

I believe the French gave it a try...

It's an area of history I'm a bit fuzzy about..Did the Vichy government field an axis army?

 

[jazzeum]

Re: Dispatches (at last!)

There were French forces that stayed loyal to the French Government and as an example the Commonwealth forces battled Vichy forces in Syria and during the Torch landings. We should also not forget that there was a sizable French Navy.

 

[redhugh]

Re: Dispatches (at last!)

There were French forces that stayed loyal to the French Government and as an example the Commonwealth forces battled Vichy forces in Syria and during the Torch landings. We should also not forget that there was a sizable French Navy.

Was googling, What was the role of France in World War 2? and came across what one wag had written as an answer ....Answer -They provided the battlefields. Seriously though , at the start the war they had 6 million soldiers including reserves ...Free French Forces only numbered 7000 at the end of 1940.. rising I think to 500.000 at D-day, but where did the rest of the army disappear to?????

 

[Blowtorch]

Re: Dispatches (at last!)

but where did the rest of the army disappear to?????

German factories, labor camps, etc.

 

[Canadian Samurai]

Re: Dispatches (at last!)

where did the rest of the army disappear to?????

Buried with unmarked graves in the mud of Verdun. Understandable that mothers didn't want their sons to end up in the same pit as their husbands/fathers.

 

[redhugh]

Re: Dispatches (at last!)

Buried with unmarked graves in the mud of Verdun. Understandable that mothers didn't want their sons to end up in the same pit as their husbands/fathers.

Looking further into this came across this page detailing military deaths during world war 2 , the germans had 5.5 million military dead, US 416,000 UK 382,000 France 217,000 . The Japanese over 2 million military dead, and the Soviets a whoopping 10.7 million military dead. China 3.8 million. Italy, Hungary , Roumania each had 300,000 and Yugoslavia 446,000. There is a seperate column for civilians.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties

 

[redhugh]

Re: Dispatches (at last!)

Came across another article reporting that over 300,000 French served in the German Forces , and an interesting account of the 33rd Waffen Grenadier Division of the SS Charlemagne (1st French)..who were the unit defending Hitler's bunker in the Fall of Berlin!.
At the end of the war France recognised 220,000 reistence fighters,
condemned 120,000 after the war for collaboration. 100,000 others were executed sumarily during the liberation.
The FFI numbered 1.2 million on VE day, after conscription was reinstated during the liberation of france.

Don't know the accuracy of the above

Also found the following answer on the internet

The French Army had never (theoretically) disbanded. While units stationed during the Occupation in Metropolitan France were few and far between, and did not get involved in any anti-German activities until they were finally disbanded in November 1942, the Armee d'Afrique, and other formations based in the colonies did not disarm.

When the Allies invaded French North Africa during Operation Torch in November 1942, the French forces based there, under the command of the collaborationist Vichy government, opened fire on them. The fighting lasted for some days until, after hard negotiations between representatives of Britain, the USA and France, Vichy French forces agreed to down tools and change sides. The Free French were scandalized to learn that some of the main collaborationists were to keep their jobs, among them Admiral Darlan, who had been one of the main proponents of collaboration with the Germans. Darlan was subsequently murdered...

When the Germans invaded the "Free Zone" of France in retaliation for the turn of coat on the part of a large number of French troops in Africa, the entire French army based in Africa switched allegiance.

It was all rather confusing, to say the least...

French troops subsequently served in Italy - the 1ere Armee - and in Normandy - the 2nd Armoured Division, or 2eme DB. These were not reformed in metropolitan France, and in fact had a relatively low proportion of French-born/French bred soldiers in them.

In real terms, their contribution was minimal. The 2eme DB was given the honour of liberating Paris, after the American IIIrd Army opened the doors for them.

As France was liberated, conscription re-started, and those who did not volunteer often found themselves volunteered anyway.

It is worth remembering two important facts; troops loyal to the legal government of France, the Vichy government, collaborated actively with the Germans in all respects, and engaged in combat against the Allies on several occasions, notably in Syria and North Africa. They changed sides only because they had no choice in the matter.

The term "Free French" is legally and correctly used to describe only those who were already engaged in Allied Forces BEFORE the date at which the Vichy troops switched; those who came onside after the landings in North Africa are NOT Free French, and have no claim whatsoever to the title. The Association France Libre, based in Rue Vergniaud, Paris, will not accept them as potential members.

 

[Rob]

Re: Dispatches (at last!)

Buried with unmarked graves in the mud of Verdun. Understandable that mothers didn't want their sons to end up in the same pit as their husbands/fathers.

And if any of you have been to Verdun you'll know what a sad,bleak,grim place it is.I can understand how all countries involved in WW2 wanted to avoid the awful Trench warfare and slaughter of WW1.Next week we mark 90 years since the end of this terrible war,a war that was meant to end all wars but was only part one.

Rob

 

[Blowtorch]

Re: Dispatches (at last!)

Came across another article reporting that over 300,000 French served in the German Forces , and an interesting account of the 33rd Waffen Grenadier Division of the SS Charlemagne (1st French)..who were the unit defending Hitler's bunker in the Fall of Berlin!.
.

It's true that the most diehard fighters defending Berlin were the foreign units of the W-SS. Dutch, Swedish, Norwegian, etc. They went down swinging. Perhaps because they were 'newer' to the cause & weren't burned out yet

 

[lancer]

Re: Dispatches (at last!)

I think it more likely that the foreign volunteers fighting for the Germans realized that they had reached the end of the line, could not surrender to the Russians, and had no home to go back to. Going down fighting probably was the last, best alternative. -- lancer

 

[Blowtorch]

Re: Dispatches (at last!)

Yeah, last night I took a quick peek at a book & the first night a W-SS French battalion was deployed in Berlin near Tempelhof, they knocked out 14 Soviet tanks

 

[Gazza]

Re: Dispatches (at last!)

But those same mothers were okay that their sons either helped transport (or said nothing) as the French jews end up in the unmarked graves of the concentration camps...

Buried with unmarked graves in the mud of Verdun. Understandable that mothers didn't want their sons to end up in the same pit as their husbands/fathers.

 

[steel wheels]

Re: Dispatches (at last!)

Came across another article reporting that over 300,000 French served in the German Forces , and an interesting account of the 33rd Waffen Grenadier Division of the SS Charlemagne (1st French)..who were the unit defending Hitler's bunker in the Fall of Berlin!.
At the end of the war France recognised 220,000 reistence fighters,
condemned 120,000 after the war for collaboration. 100,000 others were executed sumarily during the liberation.
The FFI numbered 1.2 million on VE day, after conscription was reinstated during the liberation of france.

Don't know the accuracy of the above

Also found the following answer on the internet

The French Army had never (theoretically) disbanded. While units stationed during the Occupation in Metropolitan France were few and far between, and did not get involved in any anti-German activities until they were finally disbanded in November 1942, the Armee d'Afrique, and other formations based in the colonies did not disarm.

When the Allies invaded French North Africa during Operation Torch in November 1942, the French forces based there, under the command of the collaborationist Vichy government, opened fire on them. The fighting lasted for some days until, after hard negotiations between representatives of Britain, the USA and France, Vichy French forces agreed to down tools and change sides. The Free French were scandalized to learn that some of the main collaborationists were to keep their jobs, among them Admiral Darlan, who had been one of the main proponents of collaboration with the Germans. Darlan was subsequently murdered...

When the Germans invaded the "Free Zone" of France in retaliation for the turn of coat on the part of a large number of French troops in Africa, the entire French army based in Africa switched allegiance.

It was all rather confusing, to say the least...

French troops subsequently served in Italy - the 1ere Armee - and in Normandy - the 2nd Armoured Division, or 2eme DB. These were not reformed in metropolitan France, and in fact had a relatively low proportion of French-born/French bred soldiers in them.

In real terms, their contribution was minimal. The 2eme DB was given the honour of liberating Paris, after the American IIIrd Army opened the doors for them.

As France was liberated, conscription re-started, and those who did not volunteer often found themselves volunteered anyway.

It is worth remembering two important facts; troops loyal to the legal government of France, the Vichy government, collaborated actively with the Germans in all respects, and engaged in combat against the Allies on several occasions, notably in Syria and North Africa. They changed sides only because they had no choice in the matter.

The term "Free French" is legally and correctly used to describe only those who were already engaged in Allied Forces BEFORE the date at which the Vichy troops switched; those who came onside after the landings in North Africa are NOT Free French, and have no claim whatsoever to the title. The Association France Libre, based in Rue Vergniaud, Paris, will not accept them as potential members.

Redhugh, thanks for posting. Great amount of Information. Maybe, just maybe, if they had fought the nazi's, instead of siding with them, France wouldn't have fallen so quickly.

 

[lancer]

Re: Dispatches (at last!)

Do not confuse the fall of France in 1940 with what happened later on regarding Vichy, North Afrika, and subsequent military operations. One had nothing to do with the other. The collapse of 1940 was, in basic terms, the French military failure to adapt to modern strategies or tactics. They were outthought and outfought by the Germans. Read Shirer or Horne's "To Lose A Battle" for good accounts of the French collapse. Vichy and collaberation came later. -- lancer

 

[Blowtorch]

Re: Dispatches (at last!)

This brings up another interesting point.

Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but I somewhere in my past reading I learned that the French colonials which were brought in & deployed in France after Dunkirk put up a rather good fight against the Germans during the second phase of the campaign...so I was surprised to see K&C portray them as surrendering.

 

[theBaron]

Re: Dispatches (at last!)

Do not confuse the fall of France in 1940 with what happened later on regarding Vichy, North Afrika, and subsequent military operations. One had nothing to do with the other. The collapse of 1940 was, in basic terms, the French military failure to adapt to modern strategies or tactics. They were outthought and outfought by the Germans. Read Shirer or Horne's "To Lose A Battle" for good accounts of the French collapse. Vichy and collaberation came later. -- lancer

We might add that the political collapse that occurred in the fall of France, and the establishment of the Vichy government, were the culmination of internal political conflicts that had plagued the French Republic throughout the Thirties. That is a backdrop, against which subsequent military history, both of the FFI and Free French abroad, may be viewed.

Prost!
Brad

 

[lancer]

Re: Dispatches (at last!)

The French military was not a complete loss. Many effective actions were fought and the colonial troops did well but the overall failures in strategy and tactics could not alter the outcome. Finger in the dike comes to mind. The KC figures are probably based on several well known photos of surrendering colonials. "After The Battle" publications did an outstanding photo and narrative history of the 1940 campaign. -- lancer

 

[lancer]

Re: Dispatches (at last!)

Baron -- It sure is a complicated story and a serious study of the inter-war years would be neccesary to sort it out. Those French do not do things the easy way. -- lancer

 

[binder001]

Re: Dispatches (at last!)

I can't claim to be an expert in the French army but I think of the end contribution as more than "minimal". 2eme DB was a well trained unit that fought alongside the US Army in the drive across France. Yes, they were a political football used by DeGaulle, but their contribution cannot be dismissed.

1ere French Army fought alongside the US Seventh Army in the drive from southern France up into the Vosges Mountains and into Strasbourg. DeLattre (1ere French Army) and Leclerc (CO of 2eme DB) didn't get along precisely because one was "Free French" and the other was ex-Vichy. Leclerc preferred serving with the US Army to supporting the 1ere French Army.

Rearmed French Army units also helped with containment of the German garrisons in St. Nazaire, Lorient, etc that held out until war's end. With the US and British being chronically short of infantry that's a definite contribution.

So despite the jokes to the contrary, many Frenchmen did put up an effort to liberate their country from the Germans, although it is true that most waited until it was clear which side was winning before joining in.

Gary

 

[Blowtorch]

Re: Dispatches (at last!)

Those French do not do things the easy way. -- lancer

Well, they can't be faulted for having lousy neighbors. Nobody did well against the Nazi's in the beginning, including the US. Unfortunately for France their geography dictates that if they lose a battle, they lose a war.