French Line NCO questions (1 Viewer)

[Fusilier]

I have a couple questions for the Napoleonic uniform experts. I don't have sources at home for these questions, so I thought I would ask here. Were the shakos of French Line NCOs supposed to have a red band around the top? First Legion has one NCO figure with a red band:
NAP0037

and one without:

NSP0047

Are they both supposed to have a red band and what rank are these figures representing? I notice that the upcoming 18th Line release appears to have an NCO with the red band as well. I'm just wondering as I can't seem to find a solid reference.

Noah

 

[Phantom Warrior]

And the pompoms on the Shakos are different too. Any reason? Was the 57th an exception to the standard?

Terry

 

[Obee]

My thoughts are that the red band was only for Grenadiers, but these are Fusiliers, so it doen't seem to be right.

As far as the different coloured pom-poms, thats correct, but the same colour should be used for the same section(?) of the Battalion.

I'll check my uniform resources tonight when I get home and report back,

John

 

[Ragnar]

I have never seen a Fusilier with a red band ?...also that figure using rifle as a club has a Grenadier/Voltigeurs plume.
1st Fusilier Company green pompom.
2nd Fusilier Company light blue pompom.
and there are a few other colours...!

 

[Phantom Warrior]

The FL Line units so far for the Grand Armee are the 61st, 57th and 85th. The uniforms are for the period 1807 - 1813. A reference I have for pompoms says after 1808, the plumes and pompoms were standardized. French Battalions were organized into 6 companies after 1808 (4 fusilier, one voltigeur, and a grenadier) Each of the fusiler companies had a differnt colored pom pom (first company was green, second company was sky blue, third company was orange and the fourth company pompom was violet) Grenadiers wore red plumes and voltigeurs wore yellow over green plumes. The reference warns there were non-standard variations :rolleyes2:

FL has 61st Fusiliers with green pompom (1st company), 61st Voltigeurs with Yellow over green plumes, and 61st Grenadier and a sapper with red plumes. So far so good. But one of the 61st Voltiguers (NAP0053) has a green pompom instead of a yellow over green plume (mislabeled??) and one of the 61st Grenadiers (NAP0146) has a red pompom instead of a red plume??^&confuse

The 57th is different again. The Fusiliers have a red pompom over a yellow pompom?? And the Voltigeurs of the 85th are also different with a red over green plume instead of the yellow over green plume.Looks like there were lots of variations from the standard.^&confuse

Terry

 

[Gebhard]

I have a couple questions for the Napoleonic uniform experts. I don't have sources at home for these questions, so I thought I would ask here. Were the shakos of French Line NCOs supposed to have a red band around the top? First Legion has one NCO figure with a red band:
View attachment 85461NAP0037

and one without:

View attachment 85462NSP0047

Are they both supposed to have a red band and what rank are these figures representing? I notice that the upcoming 18th Line release appears to have an NCO with the red band as well. I'm just wondering as I can't seem to find a solid reference.

Noah

Hi Noah ,
I thought you stopped collecting Napoleonic figures my friend , I bet you still can't keep your eyes off em though :wink2: Your still hooked buddy ^&grin You have some pretty specific questions here I'm surprised they haven't come up sooner as these guys were released amost 4 years ago , inquiring minds wan't to know i guess . I'm really looking forward to seeing what the "Napoleonic uniform experts" can come up with and some who will just spend all day looking on the internet looking for your answers . I'll wait to see the final verdict before pilling on , Its always interesting to see these things evolve . I'll bet ya a buck its will all come down to somehow being Matts fault {sm4} . regards Gebhard

 

[Obee]

The FL Line units so far for the Grand Armee are the 61st, 57th and 85th. The uniforms are for the period 1807 - 1813. A reference I have for pompoms says after 1808, the plumes and pompoms were standardized. French Battalions were organized into 6 companies after 1808 (4 fusilier, one voltigeur, and a grenadier) Each of the fusiler companies had a differnt colored pom pom (first company was green, second company was sky blue, third company was orange and the fourth company pompom was violet) Grenadiers wore red plumes and voltigeurs wore yellow over green plumes. The reference warns there were non-standard variations :rolleyes2:

FL has 61st Fusiliers with green pompom (1st company), 61st Voltigeurs with Yellow over green plumes, and 61st Grenadier and a sapper with red plumes. So far so good. But one of the 61st Voltiguers (NAP0053) has a green pompom instead of a yellow over green plume (mislabeled??) and one of the 61st Grenadiers (NAP0146) has a red pompom instead of a red plume??^&confuse

The 57th is different again. The Fusiliers have a red pompom over a yellow pompom?? And the Voltigeurs of the 85th are also different with a red over green plume instead of the yellow over green plume.Looks like there were lots of variations from the standard.^&confuse

Terry

Terry,

what you have posted is what I think I've read about the different colours of the PomPoms for the Fuislier companies, but what about the red band?

John

 

[Phantom Warrior]

Hi Noah ,
I thought you stopped collecting Napoleonic figures my friend , I bet you still can't keep your eyes off em though :wink2: Your still hooked buddy ^&grin You have some pretty specific questions here I'm surprised they haven't come up sooner as these guys were released amost 4 years ago , inquiring minds wan't to know i guess . I'm really looking forward to seeing what the "Napoleonic uniform experts" can come up with and some who will just spend all day looking on the internet looking for your answers . I'll wait to see the final verdict before pilling on , Its always interesting to see these things evolve . I'll bet ya a buck its will all come down to somehow being Matts fault {sm4} . regards Gebhard

I'll take that bet. I suspect the pompoms and plumes on shakos is a lot more complex than a simple standard that didn't vary over a 10 year period. I'm betting Matt got it right. The FL research and accuracy is probably the best of any manufacturer.

Terry

 

[Phantom Warrior]

Terry,

what you have posted is what I think I've read about the different colours of the PomPoms for the Fuislier companies, but what about the red band?

John

I don't remember seeing a reference to a red band signifying NCO rank as a standard. It seems to be for the 61st, not the 57th, and not for grenadiers or voltigeurs so I don't really know. I've look through a few Nap reference books, but they are on wider aspects of the Napoleonic army, tactics, organization, battles, etc. They don't have regiment by regiment uniform variations. I never got deep into the variations in uniforms and I don't have a book specifically on uniforms but there are probably several (likely with contradictory information :rolleyes2: . Seems too complex with too many exceptions and things changed over time so it was always a moving target.

The upcoming 18th have red pompoms over blue and red bands on the NCO shakos.

Terry

 

[Gebhard]

I'll take that bet. I suspect the pompoms and plumes on shakos is a lot more complex than a simple standard that didn't vary over a 10 year period. I'm betting Matt got it right. The FL research and accuracy is probably the best of any manufacturer.

Terry

You better watch it Terry your starting to sound like me {sm4} Altough far from an expert I have been studying the subject for many years and look forward to seeing what everyone comes up with before chiming in . Regards Gebhard

 

[Phantom Warrior]

You better watch it Terry your starting to sound like me {sm4} Altough far from an expert I have been studying the subject for many years and look forward to seeing what everyone comes up with before chiming in . Regards Gebhard

Well I've posted all I know about pompoms. I have seen 2 colour pompoms in books, but don't know what they signify as opposed to the single colour pompom that was a standard to denote a fusilier company. But I do know that the smallest organization of a battalion was 6 companies including 4 of Fusiliers. Earlier formations had more fusilier companies. Perhaps the 2 colour pompoms was the older system of designating companies? Before standardization, the 18th had red over blue pompoms as FL has depicted on their upcoming release.

It will probably take a good book on French uniforms to answer these questions.

Terry

 

[Obee]

Terry,

have you seen this website : http://centjours.mont-saint-jean.com/

there is uniform plates for the 61st Regt Line Infantry with individual plates for Fusiliers, Grenadiers and Voltiguers.

Only the Grenadiers have a red band.

John

 

[Fusilier]

Hi Noah ,
I thought you stopped collecting Napoleonic figures my friend , I bet you still can't keep your eyes off em though :wink2: Your still hooked buddy ^&grin You have some pretty specific questions here I'm surprised they haven't come up sooner as these guys were released amost 4 years ago , inquiring minds wan't to know i guess . I'm really looking forward to seeing what the "Napoleonic uniform experts" can come up with and some who will just spend all day looking on the internet looking for your answers . I'll wait to see the final verdict before pilling on , Its always interesting to see these things evolve . I'll bet ya a buck its will all come down to somehow being Matts fault {sm4} . regards Gebhard

True, Gebhard, I had stopped collecting Naps. But, the more I hear people like Terry and yourself mention the idea of 'regimental representatives', I am about to be drawn back in! I like the idea of a couple troops representing each of the French Line regiments, since there are already 3 line units (soon to be 4!) that FL has produced.

I'll take that bet. I suspect the pompoms and plumes on shakos is a lot more complex than a simple standard that didn't vary over a 10 year period. I'm betting Matt got it right. The FL research and accuracy is probably the best of any manufacturer.

Terry

You are no doubt correct Terry, there must have been a lot of variation. So then, it sounds like the color of the plumes correlated to the order of the companies in the different battalions, correct? I'm wondering if the red band on the shako was a regimental distinction for some units? Don't get me wrong, I'm actually not trying to question Matt's research. It's just that I don't understand or know enough about the French Army, so I'm trying to learn!:redface2:

Terry,

have you seen this website : http://centjours.mont-saint-jean.com/

there is uniform plates for the 61st Regt Line Infantry with individual plates for Fusiliers, Grenadiers and Voltiguers.

Only the Grenadiers have a red band.

John

John, I had checked that website just yesterday, following a link from Guy's blog page. Aside from the fact I don't speak French, I find it interesting that neither the 57th or 18th Line are listed there in the plates....

Noah

 

[rpk]

You better watch it Terry your starting to sound like me {sm4} Altough far from an expert I have been studying the subject for many years and look forward to seeing what everyone comes up with before chiming in . Regards Gebhard

Hi Gebhard,

Do you have insights to provide to this thread? I've found it vary interesting, as I'm just getting into this period of history. I was curious about the Voltigeurs having yellow over green plumes with the 61st and red over green with the 85th. Looking to understand the markings better so I can identify, and appreciate, the detail on sight. Enjoying the variety!

Take care,

Rich