General Helmut Von Pannwitz - had some guts. (2 Viewers)

[The Military Workshop]

A figure of Pannwitz is due out soon and the blurb says

"This German cavalry officer was the commander of the Cossack Cavalry Corps. Extremely popular with his men he often wore Cossack uniform.After the war he chose to remain with his men when they were handed over to the Russians. He was executed by the Soviets in 1947".

Not knowing much about him I looked him up on Wikipedia and the thing that struck me was that being German the British said there was no need for him to be handed over with the Cossacks he had commanded. He chose to go with them and was executed.

The Cossacks committed a number of atrocities and I am not saying he was a good guy but you have to admire his guts in sticking with his men.

I will refrain from further comment about the handing over of the Cossacks but probably not one of the finest hours for the British.

Regards
Brett

 

[Simpson & his donkey.]

What brett are you saying your beloved English did the wrong thing.Wash your mouth out and remember who and were you were born.Simmo.

 

[The Military Workshop]

As I said not one of our finest hours.

 

[Simpson & his donkey.]

Can you say that a little bit louder Brett.Simmo.

 

[sotnik]

In Russians books this history moment called < "double standards" ....he lived a double standard live , he fought a double standard war .... he got what he deserved >

 

[The Military Workshop]

"Can you say that a little bit louder Brett.Simmo."


Simmo in view of your impending deafness I would recommend a good pair of glasses.

Regarding the Russian view of WWII I guess it could be quite interesting. After all Stalin killed quite a few of his own senior officers.

Regards
Brett

 

[jazzeum]

I agree with Sotnik; groups he led committed atrocities. He would have been executed as a war criminal one way or the other.

 

[Simpson & his donkey.]

Oh Brett let me gloat a little.Simmo.

 

[The Military Workshop]

Brad I agree with your comment to some extent :

"I agree with Sotnik; groups he led committed atrocities. He would have been executed as a war criminal one way or the other".

Other than the Nuremburg trial with the main leaders I am not too familiar with what happened to other German Generals. However he could have taken his chances regarding war crimes with the Brits / USA rather than the Russians. Not defending his war record but commenting upon the fact he chose to stick with his men.

Regards
Brett

 

[Spitfrnd]

A figure of Pannwitz is due out soon and the blurb says

"This German cavalry officer was the commander of the Cossack Cavalry Corps. Extremely popular with his men he often wore Cossack uniform.After the war he chose to remain with his men when they were handed over to the Russians. He was executed by the Soviets in 1947".

Not knowing much about him I looked him up on Wikipedia and the thing that struck me was that being German the British said there was no need for him to be handed over with the Cossacks he had commanded. He chose to go with them and was executed.

The Cossacks committed a number of atrocities and I am not saying he was a good guy but you have to admire his guts in sticking with his men.

I will refrain from further comment about the handing over of the Cossacks but probably not one of the finest hours for the British.

Regards
Brett

If the Cossacks were Russian and this German officer chose to remain with them when they were naturally returned to their country, what did the British do wrong? Now returning the Poles and the other "Bloc" RAF veterans against their will to the Soviets was a different matter and certainly not deserving of much respect.

 

[The Military Workshop]

Brad and any others,
I have been Googling a bit but other than the main Nuremburg trial I can't find much reference to other trials that involved Generals. I know Kurt Meyer was put on trial but does anybody know if there is a web site or list of Generals who faced trial.
Were other German Generals handed over to the Russians apart from the ones they captured themselves ?
Regards
Brett

 

[theBaron]

Some German commanders who were charged outside of the Nuremberg process...

Field Marshall von Rundstedt was charged on the basis of approving an order to shoot commandos (not The ie, Hitler's commando order, but one preceding it), but was never tried, ostensibly due to his failing physical and mental condition.

Field Marshall Erich von Manstein was tried in 1949 and convicted, on the basis of "neglecting to protect civilians" and in connection with scorched earth orders. He was sentenced to 18 years, reduced to 12, and in the end, served 4. He became a military advisor to the Bonn government after his release.

Field Marshall Ewald von Kleist was captured by the US, sent to Yugoslavia to be tried for war crimes, and then handed over to the Soviets. They sentenced him to 10 years, and he died in prison in 1954.

Field Marshall Kesselring was tried in Venice on behalf of the Italians, on charges of massacring Italian civilians. He was found guilty and sentenced to death, but that was commuted to imprisonment (the Italians had abolished the death penalty, and there was a storm of sympathetic protest in Kesselring's favor in Great Britain). He was released in 1952 for reasons of poor health (throat cancer).

Field Marshall Ferdinand Schörner, last Commander in Chief of the Wehrmacht was arrested by the Soviets after the war, in 1951; and tried, convicted and sentenced to 25 years, which Soviet leadership reduced to 12 in 1952. He was released to the East Germans in 1954, who allowed him to emigrate to the West.

Field Marshall Walter Model committed suicide on 21. April 1945, but it said that he made up his mind when he learned that the Soviets had issued charges for him, based on responsiblity for concentration camp victims in Latvia.

SS General Wilhelm Bittrich was tried by the French in 1953 for the execution of members of the Resistance, and sentenced to 5 years. He was tried a second time in 1953, and acquitted in 1954.

Probably not enough room in a format such as this to list all of the officers who were tried...

 

[The Military Workshop]

Brad (alias the Baron),
Thanks. That is very interesting and indicates not many ended up being executed.
The thing I did notice whilst Googling was that at the time the subject of the trials was controversial. Apparently the US Chief Justice was not too keen on the idea. Stalin apparently wanted to execute about 50,000 German officers.
Regards
Brett

 

[Rob]

Brad (alias the Baron),
Thanks. That is very interesting and indicates not many ended up being executed.
The thing I did notice whilst Googling was that at the time the subject of the trials was controversial. Apparently the US Chief Justice was not too keen on the idea. Stalin apparently wanted to execute about 50,000 German officers.
Regards
Brett

Maybe Stalin thought it would be a nice change from killing his own officers!!

Rob

 

[Phantom Warrior]

There is a book by Hans Dollinger from the 1960's that claimed there were 3363 German Generals in WW2. There are different but similar numbers from other books. Not all were front line Generals - and it includes Luftwaffe Generals.

287 Generals were killed in action, 65 were listed as missing and 57 died in accidents
188 died as POW's including postwar and 57 were executed by the Allies
108 Generals committed suicide

That's almost 800 of the 3400 Generals.

Terry

 

[jazzeum]

It may have been contoversial because it was new. However, it has become accepted policy and now leaders are brought to justice where atrocities have been committed (see Yugoslavia). .
Regarding Pannowitz, I think you're missing the issue. That he was loyal to his men is irrelevant; that men under his command committed atrocities is and for that he deserved to be executed. For example, can we dismiss what
Himmler did or Eichmann did because he was loyal to his men? I think not.

I think it's somewhat regrettable that we now have a figure of him but that's a discussion for another area, not here.

 

[The Military Workshop]

Brad,

Regarding your comments

"Regarding Pannowitz, I think you're missing the issue. That he was loyal to his men is irrelevant; that men under his command committed atrocities is and for that he deserved to be executed. For example, can we dismiss what
Himmler did or Eichmann did because he was loyal to his men? I think not.
I think it's somewhat regrettable that we now have a figure of him but that's a discussion for another area, not here."

If you read my opening post I said
"The Cossacks committed a number of atrocities and I am not saying he was a good guy but you have to admire his guts in sticking with his men."

and then later again

"Not defending his war record but commenting upon the fact he chose to stick with his men".

I then pursued the thread further in respect of the aspect of German Generals being executed so that I could put it into context. It appears there were 57 such executions and probably would have been more if some had not committed suicide.

I am not missing any point as the subject of the thread started by me was merely expressing my opinion that it was brave to stick with his men. That opinion does not imply any support for him. How we get to dismissing Himmler and Eichmann based on my posts is hard to follow.

As I have mentioned elsewhere I have no problem with miniatures of such historical figures. I have a collection of leaders, good and bad. I don't personally collect other WWII figures as prefer 1800's. If somebody asks me about this Paanwitz figure the response will involve the words Cossacks, atrocities, not finest hour, bravery and execution.

Regards
Brett

 

[Spitfrnd]

I still fail to see what the British did wrong in allowing him to be sent to Russia with his men.

 

[The Military Workshop]

Nothing wrong with the British sending him since he went of his own free will.
Many of the Cossacks were anti communist going back to the 1917 Revolution when they had fought against the Bolsheviks. Many had fled Russian persecution after 1917. As part of the Yalta agreement they were to be returned and the British army had to force them onto trucks and or deceive them to do so.

The plot of the James Bond film GoldenEye (1995) is propelled by the secret resentment of 00 Agent Alec Trevelyan, son of “Lienz Cossacks”, to plot the financial destruction of the UK, because of the British betrayal that caused his Cossack father to kill himself and his wife, rather than be repatriated to the USSR.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Repatriation_of_Cossacks_after_WWII

 

[lancer]

There is a book by Hans Dollinger from the 1960's that claimed there were 3363 German Generals in WW2. There are different but similar numbers from other books. Not all were front line Generals - and it includes Luftwaffe Generals.

287 Generals were killed in action, 65 were listed as missing and 57 died in accidents
188 died as POW's including postwar and 57 were executed by the Allies
108 Generals committed suicide

That's almost 800 of the 3400 Generals.

Terry

Astounding figures. Would be interesting to see corresponding Allied figures for General rank casualties. -- lancer