Humidity & lead figures? (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter hhenry
- Start date
thebritfarmer
Moderator
- Joined
- Jan 29, 2008
- Messages
- 10,444
Are you worried about Lead rot Hugh ???
If so here is link that may help.
http://www.georgerrmartin.com/knights/knights-comments.html#leadrot
I have kept my lead figures in open backed display cases and until this year not had air conditioning in my apartment. My figures however seem non the worse for wear. Perhaps I have been lucky
If so here is link that may help.
http://www.georgerrmartin.com/knights/knights-comments.html#leadrot
I have kept my lead figures in open backed display cases and until this year not had air conditioning in my apartment. My figures however seem non the worse for wear. Perhaps I have been lucky
hhenry
Specialist
- Joined
- Jan 7, 2007
- Messages
- 273
Sure am. I don't have display cases yet and all my vintage are in boxes. I'll read that article again, thanks.
Do you know what the ideal humidity levels should be in the meantime until I can get them displayed? The levels has been as high as 65%, so am getting a bit worried. I don't want to have to open all my boxes to check them for lead rot.
Do you know what the ideal humidity levels should be in the meantime until I can get them displayed? The levels has been as high as 65%, so am getting a bit worried. I don't want to have to open all my boxes to check them for lead rot.
thebritfarmer
Moderator
- Joined
- Jan 29, 2008
- Messages
- 10,444
From a quick google it seems that 40 - 50 % is the level for most households, to keep down, mold, mildew etc.... I haven't been able to locate anything specific to toy soldiers though.
DMNamiot
Moderator
- Joined
- Apr 29, 2005
- Messages
- 4,336
Hi Hugh,
Since I collect these types of figures too I have been reading alot on this subject so I have some toughts on the issues and have gathered some possible solutions so here goes.
First I think we need to define just what Lead Rot and the white powder it produces to destroy our vintage lead toy soldiers is. One important note here it only affects our vintage soldiers since the new figures are not made with lead. Lead Rot is lead rusting and its primary cause is moisture in combination with lack of air circulation. This is basically the same thing that happens to any metals exposed to excessive moisture. The white power produced is Lead carbonate which is a poisonous substance so be careful when handling and cleaning your hands. If you have any figures with this issue it is easy to see because there will be chunks missing from the figure. The prime agent of lead rot appears to be acetic acid emanating from the cabinets used to store the figures. The major producers of acetic acid is hardwoods. Oak, ( Red and White), plywood and chipboard, teak, fire-proofed woods, and rot protected woods. Least harmful are the softer woods including spruce, fir, and pine. Therefore it is recommend that you use the soft woods or glass shelves whenever possible. Do not store you collection in Oak Cabinets because this lends itself to lead rot.
Depending on the age of the Toy Soldier sets and the value that they have you might decide to retard the process. Some experts think the best way to deal with this was to seal the figures from the causes of the oxidation process. No oxygen, no rust.
I feel that lacquering figures is a very extreme technique and would definitely affect the value of the figures if you decide to sell them at some point. The simplest method of stopping this process and retaining value is probably best, so by using a soft brush to clean the figure and remove the powder and treating the soldier with a solution of 50% spirits of turpentine and 50% mineral oil mixed together this should be enough to slow the process for a few years. Badly affected pieces should be soaked in the solution for 15-20 minutes to allow for full penetration of the hollow cast figures. Then pat dry with a soft cloth and allow the figure to air dry for a week before putting them back in the display or boxes.
Here is a run down of other things to do to help defend your collection from this problem.
1. Keep from direct sunlight
2. Put SILICA bags, like those found electronic items being shipped around the world in your display cabinet to absorb moisture.
3. Ventilation, Ventilation, Ventilation, circulate the air in the cabinet as often as possible.(daily is best.)
4. Keep the cabinet out of the direct sun.
5. I also think that displays in the open like mine are probably best I use compressed air to dust them and I like to handle them which some say is helpful because of the natural oils in our skins. Also the lighting can affect this issue, light figures with daylight fluorescent bulbs, not halogen and incandescent bulbs, which give off severe heat.
I hope this is helpful
All the best
Dave
Since I collect these types of figures too I have been reading alot on this subject so I have some toughts on the issues and have gathered some possible solutions so here goes.
First I think we need to define just what Lead Rot and the white powder it produces to destroy our vintage lead toy soldiers is. One important note here it only affects our vintage soldiers since the new figures are not made with lead. Lead Rot is lead rusting and its primary cause is moisture in combination with lack of air circulation. This is basically the same thing that happens to any metals exposed to excessive moisture. The white power produced is Lead carbonate which is a poisonous substance so be careful when handling and cleaning your hands. If you have any figures with this issue it is easy to see because there will be chunks missing from the figure. The prime agent of lead rot appears to be acetic acid emanating from the cabinets used to store the figures. The major producers of acetic acid is hardwoods. Oak, ( Red and White), plywood and chipboard, teak, fire-proofed woods, and rot protected woods. Least harmful are the softer woods including spruce, fir, and pine. Therefore it is recommend that you use the soft woods or glass shelves whenever possible. Do not store you collection in Oak Cabinets because this lends itself to lead rot.
Depending on the age of the Toy Soldier sets and the value that they have you might decide to retard the process. Some experts think the best way to deal with this was to seal the figures from the causes of the oxidation process. No oxygen, no rust.
I feel that lacquering figures is a very extreme technique and would definitely affect the value of the figures if you decide to sell them at some point. The simplest method of stopping this process and retaining value is probably best, so by using a soft brush to clean the figure and remove the powder and treating the soldier with a solution of 50% spirits of turpentine and 50% mineral oil mixed together this should be enough to slow the process for a few years. Badly affected pieces should be soaked in the solution for 15-20 minutes to allow for full penetration of the hollow cast figures. Then pat dry with a soft cloth and allow the figure to air dry for a week before putting them back in the display or boxes.
Here is a run down of other things to do to help defend your collection from this problem.
1. Keep from direct sunlight
2. Put SILICA bags, like those found electronic items being shipped around the world in your display cabinet to absorb moisture.
3. Ventilation, Ventilation, Ventilation, circulate the air in the cabinet as often as possible.(daily is best.)
4. Keep the cabinet out of the direct sun.
5. I also think that displays in the open like mine are probably best I use compressed air to dust them and I like to handle them which some say is helpful because of the natural oils in our skins. Also the lighting can affect this issue, light figures with daylight fluorescent bulbs, not halogen and incandescent bulbs, which give off severe heat.
I hope this is helpful
All the best
Dave
1879fanatic
2nd Lieutenant
- Joined
- Jan 8, 2007
- Messages
- 3,159
Dave,
Excellent little blurb on this subject. Very helpful to me. I noticed that you said you use compressed air. If this is from a compressor, just watch out for the moisture from the cylinder, best to get a filter before the hose to catch the water vapor. If you are using a can of "air", keep it pointed upright or it will freeze your guys and leave a "dry-ice" type residue.
Excellent point with using the silica bags. We should all be recyling those things for use in our collections. Thanks. Mike
Excellent little blurb on this subject. Very helpful to me. I noticed that you said you use compressed air. If this is from a compressor, just watch out for the moisture from the cylinder, best to get a filter before the hose to catch the water vapor. If you are using a can of "air", keep it pointed upright or it will freeze your guys and leave a "dry-ice" type residue.
Excellent point with using the silica bags. We should all be recyling those things for use in our collections. Thanks. Mike
William S. Grey
Private 2
- Joined
- Apr 28, 2007
- Messages
- 97
It has been my observation that the major cause of lead-rot in toy soldiers has more to do with the original composition of the metals used in the manufacture of the figures, rather than how the figures are stored or displayed.
Most old/antique figures were produced using a mixture of lead, antimony and arsenic. If the mixture was off a bit or contained too many impurities, or dross wasn't completely skimmed off the top of the melting pot, then years later lead rot, or metal fatigue could occur.
I know that a lot has been written about storing lead figures in Oak China cabinets, or display cabinets, but when I had my store, I had over 13 large oak display and China cabinets and our figures showed no ill effects from being displayed in them.
However, I once did have a group of modern day French civilian figures come down with lead-rot while being displayed in an antique oak China cabinet at home.
Funny thing about these French produced figures were that they were new, I bought them as samples at the International Toy Fair in NYC that year. The cabinet had a door that never closed completely air tight and no other figures in the cabinet showed any signs of lead-rot, yet within two years all the French figures showed signs of lead-rot.
Bill
www.vintagecastings.com
Most old/antique figures were produced using a mixture of lead, antimony and arsenic. If the mixture was off a bit or contained too many impurities, or dross wasn't completely skimmed off the top of the melting pot, then years later lead rot, or metal fatigue could occur.
I know that a lot has been written about storing lead figures in Oak China cabinets, or display cabinets, but when I had my store, I had over 13 large oak display and China cabinets and our figures showed no ill effects from being displayed in them.
However, I once did have a group of modern day French civilian figures come down with lead-rot while being displayed in an antique oak China cabinet at home.
Funny thing about these French produced figures were that they were new, I bought them as samples at the International Toy Fair in NYC that year. The cabinet had a door that never closed completely air tight and no other figures in the cabinet showed any signs of lead-rot, yet within two years all the French figures showed signs of lead-rot.
Bill
www.vintagecastings.com
theBaron
Major
- Joined
- Mar 27, 2008
- Messages
- 10,360
Hi, all!
Oak has a high content of tannic acid, which can contribute to or accelerate the lead rot process.
But remember, we're not talking absolutes, we're talking statistical probabilities, likelihoods. So, if you have old figures, cast from alloys of questionable quality, and keep them in a cabinet made of wood with a high tannic acid content, in a humid environment, the odds are better that the rot can occur, but it's not 100%.
I've heard other collectors describe the same thing that Bill noted, that figures you'd expect to disintegrate look as good as they did the day they left the workshop.
So, you pays your money, you takes your chances, as they say.
BTW, Bill, I noticed your link to Vintage Castings-do you work with Bill Lango (or are you Bill under a nom de forum)? Are there any plans to revive printing Toy Soldier Review? I really miss the magazine, and I'm sure others will agree, too.
Prost!
Brad
Oak has a high content of tannic acid, which can contribute to or accelerate the lead rot process.
But remember, we're not talking absolutes, we're talking statistical probabilities, likelihoods. So, if you have old figures, cast from alloys of questionable quality, and keep them in a cabinet made of wood with a high tannic acid content, in a humid environment, the odds are better that the rot can occur, but it's not 100%.
I've heard other collectors describe the same thing that Bill noted, that figures you'd expect to disintegrate look as good as they did the day they left the workshop.
So, you pays your money, you takes your chances, as they say.
BTW, Bill, I noticed your link to Vintage Castings-do you work with Bill Lango (or are you Bill under a nom de forum)? Are there any plans to revive printing Toy Soldier Review? I really miss the magazine, and I'm sure others will agree, too.
Prost!
Brad
thebritfarmer
Moderator
- Joined
- Jan 29, 2008
- Messages
- 10,444
According to the link I provided, the author doesn't buy the theory behind the wood the cabinet is made of. He also states that some manufacturers are more prone than others. Britains not so much possible because of a better quality metal (more tin/zinc content).
William S. Grey
Private 2
- Joined
- Apr 28, 2007
- Messages
- 97
Hi:
I forgot the name of the maker. They were made in France and were Circus Figures.
Bill
www.vintagecastings.com
I forgot the name of the maker. They were made in France and were Circus Figures.
Bill
www.vintagecastings.com
William S. Grey
Private 2
- Joined
- Apr 28, 2007
- Messages
- 97
Hi Brad:
You got it, William S. Grey is my a nom de forum! As for Toy Soldier Review, I just didn't have the time, money or energy to continue it.
Bill
www.vintagecastings.com
You got it, William S. Grey is my a nom de forum! As for Toy Soldier Review, I just didn't have the time, money or energy to continue it.
Bill
www.vintagecastings.com