I am ashamed. (1 Viewer)

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wadepat

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Gentle Friends,

I have followed the discussion of the new Rammjager with much interest. It is a truly interesting model. It is one that will certainly enhance the collections of those who choose to purchase it. I have not yet decided if I will be one of those collectors.

In reviewing all of the discussion related to the Rammjager, I find myself to be distressed and greatly saddened. I have watched a friend and an informed collector ask a for documentation of the inspiration that resulted in the K&C Rammjager. The response he has received has been neither respectful nor civil. And,...

I am ashamed.

My friend has repeatedly expressed his intention to purchase the Rammjager regardless of the historical reality its origin. He only wanted to confirm his tentative conclusion that the Rammjager had never actually been produced. Yet, when he questioned the only source provided because it never clearly stated that the craft was produced, no actual pictures were presented, and no additional references could be found, he was met with rudeness. And,...

I am ashamed.

Then Andy Neilsen, who is a god to some, a leader for many, and a friend to large numbers of K&C collectors, posts a response that belittles my friend's command of English as a second language. Andy's post insensitively attempts to make fun of my friend, and elicits a host of followers to defend his disrespectful humor. And...

I am ashamed.

I frequently see spirited discussions of the absence of historical accuracy of certain toy soldier products. Incorrect shoulder patches, tank treads, camo patterns, etc. come to mind. When I attempt to understand how the Rammjager question differs from earlier concerns, I am confused. And,...

I am ashamed.

When my friend recently resigned from this forum and members expressed a sense of loss and pleaded for his return with promises of civility and respect, my friend responded with warmth and humility. Yet, when he asks a question based on his keen knowledge and astute insights, he is greeted with a sense of irritation. And,...

I am ashamed.

There have often been discussions on the forum concerning humankind's inability of learn from history. Yet, we demonstrate the we, who love history, do not learn from our own experiences. And,...

I am ashamed.

And,...

I thought we were better than that.

Warmest personal regards,

Pat
 
Myself and Brad apologised if we upset Pierre which we had no intention of doing.I think its time to move on now.

Rob
 
I echo what Rob says and I think you have completely overblown the issue. I think Andy attempted to be humorous without attempting to insult Pierre. Whether that happened or not, that is for others to decide.

In my view, the underlying issue about the plane has been asked and answered. Andy said he got it out of a book, thought the idea interesting and decided to make it. Now, whether the answer is satisfactory or not, that is similarly left to others to decide.
 
Pat, I am in agreement with your thoughts and comments. They are, as usual, insightful and very mature.

However, there is always a “however” isn’t there; however, I am more perplexed and amazed at some of the comments then I am ashamed. I don’t know if I would use the word ashamed as much as another word – respect.

I am also concerned about what are often called “filters” in our communications with each other. People who study mass communication, human behavior, organizational behaviorists and others who relate to people (like Pete) understand the concept of filters when it comes to inter and intra human communication.

I am wondering if the passion that some of us have for this hobby of ours directs some of us to a much greater degree of seriousness when it comes to this forum and expressing our opinions.

I am wondering if that personal senses of seriousness that an individual writer has should mean that that writer, being aware of their seriousness, should take a deep breath, review what has been written and edit it for some sense of kindness and maybe even a little respect for the intended reader.

I am wondering if someone who lives in one particular country can even understand that someone in another country or culture may not fully understand or “get” the thoughts, intentions or emotional responses that are being sent through the written media we use and that we often miss opportunities to communicate on a mature and understanding level and it then begins to deteriorate as more emotions become activated.

Maybe some stereotypical patterns are offensive to others. And I am not being PC. I mean that perhaps someone is proud of his or her heritage and when he or she perceives a threat to that deeply held feeling, they tend to either fight or flight and I don’t know of many of us on this forum who are prone to flight.

This forum seems to have a life cycle that occasionally brings out these types of conversations and emotional reactions. After all we are human beings and we are prone to make error.

I have quit the forum twice. Put many members on my “ignore list” and I have found that not taking everything so serious is a clue to my happiness here and in life. The only thing serious in life is death, but that’s my culture. In someone else’ culture there are many, many serious things before death and I respect them for their beliefs and feelings. I think the key work is respect not shame. My “ignore list” is blank and I will not quit the forum. I get too much information about my passion er I mean hobby.

I would say to the person offended, don’t quit again, there are some of us that value every member and every opinion. We need to agree to disagree and remain civilized and friends.
 
That is a pretty nasty way of being humorous in my book. In fact the question has been dodged not answered. It is highly likely that the Ramjager is an experimental design which never made it beyond a few sketches. No evidenc of it as a prototype has been offered. All that needs to be said is that this is an artists impression of what such a plane would have looked like. There were lots of German secret weapons about some of whihc were made and some of which were not. Collecting and cataloguing these odd weapons is a field all on its own. Trying to fudge the issue is wrong. If people want to collect a mythical/artists impression model then they can. We are all interested in history and have a fairly above average knowledge of military history. You can fool some of the people all the time but not all of the people all the time. It was a truly great American who said that along with " With malice towards none and with justice for all"
 
Frankly, I could care less whether Andy is naughty or nice. Everyone can form their own opinion if necessary - I have. If he makes a good toy soldier, I'll buy it. If not, I won't. Pat - don't take that as a criticism since I share many of your concerns. Now bring on that "SS death ray." A big seller no doubt.
 
wadepat said:
Gentle Friends,

I have followed the discussion of the new Rammjager with much interest. It is a truly interesting model. It is one that will certainly enhance the collections of those who choose to purchase it. I have not yet decided if I will be one of those collectors.

In reviewing all of the discussion related to the Rammjager, I find myself to be distressed and greatly saddened. I have watched a friend and an informed collector ask a for documentation of the inspiration that resulted in the K&C Rammjager. The response he has received has been neither respectful nor civil. And,...

I am ashamed.

My friend has repeatedly expressed his intention to purchase the Rammjager regardless of the historical reality its origin. He only wanted to confirm his tentative conclusion that the Rammjager had never actually been produced. Yet, when he questioned the only source provided because it never clearly stated that the craft was produced, no actual pictures were presented, and no additional references could be found, he was met with rudeness. And,...

I am ashamed.

Then Andy Neilsen, who is a god to some, a leader for many, and a friend to large numbers of K&C collectors, posts a response that belittles my friend's command of English as a second language. Andy's post insensitively attempts to make fun of my friend, and elicits a host of followers to defend his disrespectful humor. And...

I am ashamed.

I frequently see spirited discussions of the absence of historical accuracy of certain toy soldier products. Incorrect shoulder patches, tank treads, camo patterns, etc. come to mind. When I attempt to understand how the Rammjager question differs from earlier concerns, I am confused. And,...

I am ashamed.

When my friend recently resigned from this forum and members expressed a sense of loss and pleaded for his return with promises of civility and respect, my friend responded with warmth and humility. Yet, when he asks a question based on his keen knowledge and astute insights, he is greeted with a sense of irritation. And,...

I am ashamed.

There have often been discussions on the forum concerning humankind's inability of learn from history. Yet, we demonstrate the we, who love history, do not learn from our own experiences. And,...

I am ashamed.

And,...

I thought we were better than that.

Warmest personal regards,

Pat
Click to expand...

Pat,

For the first time in our friendship, I have to respectfully disagree with you. You should not be ashamed. Those of us who showed no disrespect, and kept our mouths shut and our opinions to ourselves should not be ashamed.

And anybody who accidentally said anything anyone found offensive and then appologized should not be ashamed.

And the people who are deliberately mocking others and/or taking themselves too seriously should not be ashamed, they should just lighten up. I have always operated under the assumption that we are all friends here. I have extended invitations to everyone on this forum, as friends, to come to my home. So, as I don't believe any of my friends are being truly hateful, I think nobody should be ashamed, we should all just try to behave like friends, and let it go.
 
Louis Badolato said:
Pat,

For the first time in our friendship, I have to respectfully disagree with you. You should not be ashamed. Those of us who showed no disrespect, and kept our mouths shut and our opinions to ourselves should not be ashamed.

And anybody who accidentally said anything anyone found offensive and then appologized should not be ashamed.

And the people who are deliberately mocking others and/or taking themselves too seriously should not be ashamed, they should just lighten up. I have always operated under the assumption that we are all friends here. I have extended invitations to everyone on this forum, as friends, to come to my home. So, as I don't believe any of my friends are being truly hateful, I think nobody should be ashamed, we should all just try to behave like friends, and let it go.
Click to expand...

Well said Louis-

But why is it not applying to mister Neilson?

Why is it Brad and Rob (and all the other members of the forum who sent me PMs) who are presenting their apologies and try to excuse mister Neilson?

I think that I am the one who has to decide if it was a bad attempt to be humorous or an insulting post from a member towards another member and unless mister Neilson excuse himself in public, I will assume that he did it on purpose.

My question about the Rammjäger was legitimate and as he was the one who presented it as a secret weapon he should have answered it directly, not in another thread, days later, using the tone of an annoyed man and telling me in a blunty way to stop bugging him: end of the story he wrote.

I know that you will take his side (and almost all the members of the forum) no matter what he will do and the reasons are obvious but what you will do if mister Neilson says that the earth is now flat?

Having said that, I assure you of my friendship and hope that you have the same feelings towards me.

Respecfully submitted,
Pierre.
 
There is no need to keep pounding this subject but I do want to add one thing.

Speaking from experience - People can make a joke or say something in jest which can be taken wrong. No harm was intended nor was there a insult meant - it was simply misunderstood. Humor is that rare art and craft which inspires or insults within the same sentence.

I think we all should take deep breaths and ask again if that was what someone meant when something is said - then make the decision of your response.

There are plenty of people on this forum who have negative feelings for me and others - thats their problem. I believe we should approach everything in the positive and with a humorous attitude.

Respect is a two way street - you have to give to get. I PM Pierre and told him I felt it was a joke - that Andy meant no harm - it Pierre's decision to accept that or not. I respect Pierre and agreed that we needed more information on WS100 to make a decision on purchases. I think we got our answer - for better or worse.

Pierre is a good man and I respect him - hopefully we will get pass this and be able to discuss and joke about our favorite hobby.

Ron
 
Capitolron said:
There is no need to keep pounding this subject but I do want to add one thing.

Speaking from experience - People can make a joke or say something in jest which can be taken wrong. No harm was intended nor was there a insult meant - it was simply misunderstood. Humor is that rare art and craft which inspires or insults within the same sentence.

I think we all should take deep breaths and ask again if that was what someone meant when something is said - then make the decision of your response.

Pierre is a good man and I respect him - hopefully we will get pass this and be able to discuss and joke about our favorite hobby.

Ron
Click to expand...

None of your excuses Ron. The Ruskies are tunneling to Alaska and you are worried about this? Canada and treefrog headquarters are the only things that stand between DC and the red menace. http://www.treefrogtreasures.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3819
 
OMG - I knew it Combat - they are coming.

Now more than ever we need a Fighter Bomber Jet to attack this project...:D

Really interesting - talk about a fantasy - that one is out there. :rolleyes:
 
Pierre said:
Well said Louis-

But why is it not applying to mister Neilson?

Why is it Brad and Rob (and all the other members of the forum who sent me PMs) who are presenting their apologies and try to excuse mister Neilson?

I think that I am the one who has to decide if it was a bad attempt to be humorous or an insulting post from a member towards another member and unless mister Neilson excuse himself in public, I will assume that he did it on purpose.

My question about the Rammjäger was legitimate and as he was the one who presented it as a secret weapon he should have answered it directly, not in another thread, days later, using the tone of an annoyed man and telling me in a blunty way to stop bugging him: end of the story he wrote.

I know that you will take his side (and almost all the members of the forum) no matter what he will do and the reasons are obvious but what you will do if mister Neilson says that the earth is now flat?

Having said that, I assure you of my friendship and hope that you have the same feelings towards me.

Respecfully submitted,
Pierre.
Click to expand...

Pierre,

I am not taking Andy's side. Andy is a very good friend of mine, but if he deliberately or inadvertantly insulted you, he should appologize. And if he does, you should accept his appology. I will not try to interject myself into Andy's rationale for his comments. Whatever it was, he should explain it to you, one on one, and you both should get past this. As I have also said, I consider every member of this forum with whom I have chatted over the past couple of years to be my friend, and I don't want to see you, my friend, get so upset. I am sure when Andy realizes how upset you are, he will extend an olive branch of friendship. As I recall, a certain other friend of ours on the forum had a pretty nasty public spat with Andy, and I think Andy contacted him privately and they worked everything out.
 
At the risk of trying to inject some levity here, when I see the word "ashamed" used so many times, I am reminded of the following....
 
Armysetupjune2003142.jpg

Charlie:)
 
Pierre

I also know that since his post Andy has been in China and does not get online whilst there he returns to HK on Friday.

Tony
 
Pierre said:
Well said Louis-

But why is it not applying to mister Neilson?

Why is it Brad and Rob (and all the other members of the forum who sent me PMs) who are presenting their apologies and try to excuse mister Neilson?

I think that I am the one who has to decide if it was a bad attempt to be humorous or an insulting post from a member towards another member and unless mister Neilson excuse himself in public, I will assume that he did it on purpose.

My question about the Rammjäger was legitimate and as he was the one who presented it as a secret weapon he should have answered it directly, not in another thread, days later, using the tone of an annoyed man and telling me in a blunty way to stop bugging him: end of the story he wrote.

I know that you will take his side (and almost all the members of the forum) no matter what he will do and the reasons are obvious but what you will do if mister Neilson says that the earth is now flat?

Having said that, I assure you of my friendship and hope that you have the same feelings towards me.

Respecfully submitted,
Pierre.
Click to expand...


Pierre,i gave you an honest and heartfelt apology if you were offended by me laughing at what Andy said.I did not mention Andy's remarks at all and have not made an attempt to excuse his remarks.It is not my place to do so,it matters not if i found them offensive or not it is for you to decide.

I really think it would be best all round if you can move past this Pierre.This forum is a wonderful place and these arguments always blow over and forgotten.As Michael said it is often difficult for people of different countries across a forum to explain their humour,especially if like me your British!.If i may tell you of something that happened to me here.

When my good friend Ron first arrived on this forum he made some remarks about the British/Irish situation.I missunderstood this as a remark regarding a relative i lost in a terrorist attack in London.I was absolutely furious and deeply offended.However he both explained and apologized and it was quickly forgotten.He has become a great treefrog friend and i cannot imagine the forum without Napoleron!

Shrug it off Pierre and move on.:)

Cheers my Friend

Rob
 
Rob

Did you call me "friend" ? - why you English $%((#%^% and you #$%^^%$
- and let me tell you %$#^@&*% ! :eek:

Hehehehehe - Yep, Friends we are and more people on this forum (not just Pierre) should try to work through their issues with people like Rob and I did.

Pierre - you are a great guy and a great member of this forum - I am sure you and Andy can work this out.

Now lets talk about something we all love my french friend.......

NAPOLEON !

:D :D :D
 
Talk about something we love....Can someone write 'Pasta' in big Red block letters please;)

Rob
 
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