Issue of Accuracy (2 Viewers)

[Arnhemjim]

Believe a healthy dose of honesty and candor are needed regarding the following subject. Hate the PC term “transparency”, sounds like “Cellophane Man” from the musical and movie “Chicago”. For those who may find it too cerebral, and/or inconsistent with the objective of “toy soldiers" being a hobby intended solely for joy and relaxation, my sincere apologies. Further for those who may feel a slight pinch in the size of the “boot” (intentional choice of words), am certain I will hear about it. Will also be curious as to whether this is the proverbial “third rail” in the hobby.

Personally, have frequently wondered what causes errors to occur in the finished production of military miniatures, aka “toy soldiers”. And even more to the point, to what extent are the errors inadvertent and unintentional, or intentional with full knowledge and malice of forethought? I think the predominate factor for the former, is ignorance of the subject matter (compounded by lack of motivation to learn), and for the latter it is time and cost. I think it is only in very isolated cases that artistic license, i.e. personal temperament, would motivate an intentional error, however am absolutely certain that it has occurred, as have personally witnessed same..

In an attempt to further analyze the issue, the reader might first consider the causes of ignorance of the subject matter;
• Lack of, or total non-existence, of any form of accurate reference material on the subject(s) of interest.
• Lack of knowledge of existing reference source materials, or even difficulty in obtaining same.
• Lack of linguistic skills requisite to recognize and/or convey available pertinent source materials.
• Lack of the requisite research skill sets to search for and fully exploit available reference materials.
• Misinterpretation of accurate available reference materials.
• Erroneous decision on conflicting sources of information (each claiming to be “impeccably accurate”, failing to pick the “right one”.
• Lack of mathematical skills requisite to interpret and/or translate available reference data.
• Conscious managerial decision to delegate research to individuals who supposedly possess the requisite skill sets, and do not.
• On review of a research report on a specific subject, making a judgement decision that the material is comprehensive and accurate.

Conversely there are equally identifiable causes which drive conscious intentional decisions to accept an error or errors;
• Budgetary limitations in one or more elements of the design, manufacturing and distribution processes.
• Overwhelming priority to beat the competition to market with new product or series.
• Production and delivery schedules which preclude identified errors being corrected.
• Magnitude of the error is not correctable within available time of business cycle.
• Materials/media, engineering, tooling and manufacturing processes which preclude accurate replication of size and scale at a competitive price.
• Complexity of actual figure, vehicle, or item precludes practical replication in miniature without compromise in accuracy.
• Selection of a primary construction material, because of availability and/or cost.
• Decision that level of accurate detail has to be limited in order that probable breakage in packaging and shipment are kept at an acceptable level of replacement costs.
• Decision to incorrectly modify configuration of previously issued model to save cost.
• Decision that a vast majority of buyers either would not have requisite knowledge to recognize the error, and/or in the eyes of the manufacturer, would not care.

Am not certain this covers all the causes of inaccuracies (apologies for overlap and redundancies), as there may well be an overlooked elephant in the room, which am certain will be immediately identified.

Arnhem Jim
Arizona Territories

 

[Jack]

Believe a healthy dose of honesty and candor are needed regarding the following subject. Hate the PC term “transparency”, sounds like “Cellophane Man” from the musical and movie “Chicago”. For those who may find it too cerebral, and/or inconsistent with the objective of “toy soldiers" being a hobby intended solely for joy and relaxation, my sincere apologies. Further for those who may feel a slight pinch in the size of the “boot” (intentional choice of words), am certain I will hear about it. Will also be curious as to whether this is the proverbial “third rail” in the hobby.

Personally, have frequently wondered what causes errors to occur in the finished production of military miniatures, aka “toy soldiers”. And even more to the point, to what extent are the errors inadvertent and unintentional, or intentional with full knowledge and malice of forethought? I think the predominate factor for the former, is ignorance of the subject matter (compounded by lack of motivation to learn), and for the latter it is time and cost. I think it is only in very isolated cases that artistic license, i.e. personal temperament, would motivate an intentional error, however am absolutely certain that it has occurred, as have personally witnessed same..

In an attempt to further analyze the issue, the reader might first consider the causes of ignorance of the subject matter;
• Lack of, or total non-existence, of any form of accurate reference material on the subject(s) of interest.
• Lack of knowledge of existing reference source materials, or even difficulty in obtaining same.
• Lack of linguistic skills requisite to recognize and/or convey available pertinent source materials.
• Lack of the requisite research skill sets to search for and fully exploit available reference materials.
• Misinterpretation of accurate available reference materials.
• Erroneous decision on conflicting sources of information (each claiming to be “impeccably accurate”, failing to pick the “right one”.
• Lack of mathematical skills requisite to interpret and/or translate available reference data.
• Conscious managerial decision to delegate research to individuals who supposedly possess the requisite skill sets, and do not.
• On review of a research report on a specific subject, making a judgement decision that the material is comprehensive and accurate.

Conversely there are equally identifiable causes which drive conscious intentional decisions to accept an error or errors;
• Budgetary limitations in one or more elements of the design, manufacturing and distribution processes.
• Overwhelming priority to beat the competition to market with new product or series.
• Production and delivery schedules which preclude identified errors being corrected.
• Magnitude of the error is not correctable within available time of business cycle.
• Materials/media, engineering, tooling and manufacturing processes which preclude accurate replication of size and scale at a competitive price.
• Complexity of actual figure, vehicle, or item precludes practical replication in miniature without compromise in accuracy.
• Selection of a primary construction material, because of availability and/or cost.
• Decision that level of accurate detail has to be limited in order that probable breakage in packaging and shipment are kept at an acceptable level of replacement costs.
• Decision to incorrectly modify configuration of previously issued model to save cost.
• Decision that a vast majority of buyers either would not have requisite knowledge to recognize the error, and/or in the eyes of the manufacturer, would not care.

Am not certain this covers all the causes of inaccuracies (apologies for overlap and redundancies), as there may well be an overlooked elephant in the room, which am certain will be immediately identified.

Arnhem Jim
Arizona Territories

Movies exert a considerable influence on our historical perceptions. Do we want historically accurate figures fighting Zulus or do we want Michael Caine?

 

[Arnhemjim]

Movies exert a considerable influence on our historical perceptions. Do we want historically accurate figures fighting Zulus or do we want Michael Caine?

I don't have an answer, you tell me. Movies are one form of entertainment, and I believe "toy soldiers" another.
Arnhem Jim

 

[katana]

Major product inaccuracy is common in Toy soldiers and is usually disregarded because they are Toy Soldiers! Two schools of thought exist; one is the traditional school where Toy Soldiers are Art Objects and subject to artistic interpretation. The other school of thought considers Toy Soldiers as Military Miniatures and that they should be accurate in detail and scale. The collectors demanding greater accuracy usually come into the hobby from modeling; where the standards are somewhat higher. Given the high prices of Toy soldiers versus models, accuracy is not an unreasonable expectation IMO. Some Toy Soldier manufacturers provide a greater level of accuracy than others, Figarti was the best in terms of Armor and Artillery. I find it very disappointing to buy Armor from one manufacturer that is advertised as 1/30 scale only to measure it and find it is actually 1/28 scale and looks silly next to other pieces in my collection.

Some manufacturers have made major errors in scale and details and when confronted shrug it off as a minor quibble. The only option is to avoid such products. Pointing out errors is useful to new collectors in determining which products are best and I personally do this at the expense of a lot of trolling. I think a more rigorous product review process would be very helpful in educating both manufacturers and collectors. Julies photo comparisons are very helpful in this regard as are product critiques that do not devolve into acrimony as they tend to do sometimes!

 

[Fitzgibbon]

I don't have an answer, you tell me. Movies are one form of entertainment, and I believe "toy soldiers" another.
Arnhem Jim

The market is fairly clearly behind the movies though I am more Malkovich than Caine. Majority rules in any market. The list of caveats in the opening post clearly indicates that clarity of definition has gone missing. Given those caveats, the assumption of inaccuracies needs addressing before any logical discussion about causal relationships. A broad statement about inaccuracy anywhere in general seems of limited value.

 

[ivanmoe]

Believe a healthy dose of honesty and candor are needed regarding the following subject. Hate the PC term “transparency”, sounds like “Cellophane Man” from the musical and movie “Chicago”. For those who may find it too cerebral, and/or inconsistent with the objective of “toy soldiers" being a hobby intended solely for joy and relaxation, my sincere apologies. Further for those who may feel a slight pinch in the size of the “boot” (intentional choice of words), am certain I will hear about it. Will also be curious as to whether this is the proverbial “third rail” in the hobby.

Personally, have frequently wondered what causes errors to occur in the finished production of military miniatures, aka “toy soldiers”. And even more to the point, to what extent are the errors inadvertent and unintentional, or intentional with full knowledge and malice of forethought? I think the predominate factor for the former, is ignorance of the subject matter (compounded by lack of motivation to learn), and for the latter it is time and cost. I think it is only in very isolated cases that artistic license, i.e. personal temperament, would motivate an intentional error, however am absolutely certain that it has occurred, as have personally witnessed same..

In an attempt to further analyze the issue, the reader might first consider the causes of ignorance of the subject matter;
• Lack of, or total non-existence, of any form of accurate reference material on the subject(s) of interest.
• Lack of knowledge of existing reference source materials, or even difficulty in obtaining same.
• Lack of linguistic skills requisite to recognize and/or convey available pertinent source materials.
• Lack of the requisite research skill sets to search for and fully exploit available reference materials.
• Misinterpretation of accurate available reference materials.
• Erroneous decision on conflicting sources of information (each claiming to be “impeccably accurate”, failing to pick the “right one”.
• Lack of mathematical skills requisite to interpret and/or translate available reference data.
• Conscious managerial decision to delegate research to individuals who supposedly possess the requisite skill sets, and do not.
• On review of a research report on a specific subject, making a judgement decision that the material is comprehensive and accurate.

Conversely there are equally identifiable causes which drive conscious intentional decisions to accept an error or errors;
• Budgetary limitations in one or more elements of the design, manufacturing and distribution processes.
• Overwhelming priority to beat the competition to market with new product or series.
• Production and delivery schedules which preclude identified errors being corrected.
• Magnitude of the error is not correctable within available time of business cycle.
• Materials/media, engineering, tooling and manufacturing processes which preclude accurate replication of size and scale at a competitive price.
• Complexity of actual figure, vehicle, or item precludes practical replication in miniature without compromise in accuracy.
• Selection of a primary construction material, because of availability and/or cost.
• Decision that level of accurate detail has to be limited in order that probable breakage in packaging and shipment are kept at an acceptable level of replacement costs.
• Decision to incorrectly modify configuration of previously issued model to save cost.
• Decision that a vast majority of buyers either would not have requisite knowledge to recognize the error, and/or in the eyes of the manufacturer, would not care.

Am not certain this covers all the causes of inaccuracies (apologies for overlap and redundancies), as there may well be an overlooked elephant in the room, which am certain will be immediately identified.

Arnhem Jim
Arizona Territories

Perhaps it would be useful if you were to post pics of a set that you find laudable in terms of accuracy.

-Moe

 

[Arnhemjim]

Perhaps it would be useful if you were to post pics of a set that you find laudable in terms of accuracy.

-Moe

Hello Moe,
Two caveats; first am not a professional photographer, second this forum imposes some rigorous upload memory limitations on images. I may have to take some time complying with the memory issue, bear with me. And as anticipated will be another royal pain in the arse, and am limited to 5 images, hope you can see the final result. First figure is a British Para in the Falklands 1982 by Chota Sahib, second figure being a 92nd Gordon Highlander at Waterloo 1815 by St.Peterburg Art Collection.
Arnhem Jim
Arizona Territory

 

[Arnhemjim]

Perhaps it would be useful if you were to post pics of a set that you find laudable in terms of accuracy.

-Moe

Hello again Moe,
A final addendum with remaining images of Gordon Highlander. Hopefully no duplicates. Trust the effort is appreciated.
Arnhem Jim
Arizona Territory

 

[ivanmoe]

Trust the effort is appreciated.

Very much so.

-Moe

 

[ivanmoe]

Here are some pics of a favorite figure of mine, JJD's BGC-08, Sergeant, Royal Flying Corps:







I use Sgt Crumm (as I call him) in a lot of my picture-taking sessions, more so than perhaps any other figure set that I own. The pics were taken with a 10x macro-lens, BTW. Note the shoulder patch in the last image. Clearly, someone was having some "fun" with his customers. If I mention this, it's because the inaccuracy has never troubled me to the extent that I doubt that there's a 20-20 set of eyeballs among us that can detect this little bit of tom-foolery. Inaccurate yes, deal killer no!

-Moe

 

[Fitzgibbon]

I like Sgt Crumm :salute::. While the quality of human vision varies from person to person, inaccuracy in where the tradesman has moved the brush is discernible at this magnification - and this is a 60mm figure here. Aeroplanes and airman make a particularly good series for John and attention to detail is not a let down area. Great photography aside (nice, Moe), this is quality within the range and interest of a lot of purchasers on this Forum. I recently viewed some St Petersburg with Phillyp at Figurines et Collections in Savoie; loved their presentation to the point of lust, but walked away with some rare K&C that had been difficult to locate, simply because they were within my scale of economy - thanks Phillyp for the bargains {sm0}. I also bought some of John's WWI French as gifts for friends in France - and had some diorama fun as a result. It's a great hobby for sharing {sm4}. Like many, I have some figures that I wish I had not bought, but they were a result of my own inexperience. I have got better, and note at the same time that I would not have persisted had I not enjoyed the chase.

 

[katana]

The largest accuracy error of Toy Solder manufacturers is size. Advertised 60 mm figures can range from 58 to 68 mm tall from top of base to top of head by actual measurement. Only W. Britains and First Legion in WWII figures conform to the 60 mm standard. TCS, K&C and TG figures are all oversize in height and proportion. You cannot combine W. Britains or First Legion Fallschirmjager with TCS or TG Fallscirmjager as the size disparity makes them look ridiculous.

Other errors are manufacturers who persist in making oversize figures and undersize vehicles. Oversize weapons is another area of inaccuracy; as is poor choice of colors and a general lack of quality control. Even Figarti , which produced superior armor shipped product with missing pieces! I can forgive missing pieces in a $50.00 plastic model, but not in a $200.00 mixed media model!

 

[Ivanhoe]

Here are some pics of a favorite figure of mine, JJD's BGC-08, Sergeant, Royal Flying Corps:


I use Sgt Crumm (as I call him) in a lot of my picture-taking sessions, more so than perhaps any other figure set that I own. The pics were taken with a 10x macro-lens, BTW. Note the shoulder patch in the last image. Clearly, someone was having some "fun" with his customers. If I mention this, it's because the inaccuracy has never troubled me to the extent that I doubt that there's a 20-20 set of eyeballs among us that can detect this little bit of tom-foolery. Inaccurate yes, deal killer no!

-Moe

Great figure Moe !

Amazing to get that lettering at that scale.

Thank you.

 

[ivanmoe]

[...]Oversize weapons is another area of inaccuracy[,,,]

That's the one that always comes to mind when the subject of size/scale anomalies arises. I find it odd that there's so little mention of it among collectors here on the forum. In fact, "oversize weapons" could *almost* be considered a defining characteristic of toy soldiers. Given the limitations of casting technology for white-metal figures, this is something that most of us have learned to live with. And I'd note that were light weapons cast in proper proportions, they'd be even more vulnerable to being bent and/or broken than is currently the case. Still, I do appreciate and enjoy efforts by makers to improve this aspect of TS design and manufacturer. Here's another figure of mine that I consider a treasure of sorts, in part because the rendering of the weapon is more sophisticated than what could be considered standard-fare, WB's 13034:









-Moe

 

[PanzerAce1944]

The largest accuracy error of Toy Solder manufacturers is size. Advertised 60 mm figures can range from 58 to 68 mm tall from top of base to top of head by actual measurement. Only W. Britains and First Legion in WWII figures conform to the 60 mm standard. TCS, K&C and TG figures are all oversize in height and proportion. You cannot combine W. Britains or First Legion Fallschirmjager with TCS or TG Fallscirmjager as the size disparity makes them look ridiculous.

Other errors are manufacturers who persist in making oversize figures and undersize vehicles. Oversize weapons is another area of inaccuracy; as is poor choice of colors and a general lack of quality control. Even Figarti , which produced superior armor shipped product with missing pieces! I can forgive missing pieces in a $50.00 plastic model, but not in a $200.00 mixed media model!

Katana, One thing that is amazing is First Legion claims their WWII range is 1/30 scale. K&C , TG, CS also claim 1/30 scale but the First Legion figures seem
tiny compared to the other 3 brands.My own preference is the size offered by the other 3 brands. Seems to be 3 to 1 here on depiction in size ?

Wayne

 

[Dragoon]

Katana, One thing that is amazing is First Legion claims their WWII range is 1/30 scale. K&C , TG, CS also claim 1/30 scale but the First Legion figures seem
tiny compared to the other 3 brands.My own preference is the size offered by the other 3 brands. Seems to be 3 to 1 here on depiction in size ?

Wayne

Well First Legion might seem small to you because their figures are properly proportioned to human anatomy. They don't suffer from giant head syndrome like those made by K&C.

 

[Fitzgibbon]

Well First Legion might seem small to you because their figures are properly proportioned to human anatomy. They don't suffer from giant head syndrome like those made by K&C.

That syndrome has been around a while

 

[Dragoon]

Yes it has. It's certainly a distinct style.

 

[katana]

Wayne; First Legion and W. Britains WWII figures measure from 58 to 62mm from top of base to top of head. K&C, TCS and TG WWII figures measure from 65 to 68mm. 1/30 scale is a 60mm tall figure. FL, WB and Kronprinze WWII figures are the correct size IMO. TCS, K&C and TG WWII figures are oversize and about 1/28 scale. The 60mm figures as measured are the most size compatible with Figarti, TG and Honor Bound Armor, which comprises most of my collection.
The popularity of FL WWII figures and Armor is based on their size compatibility and the realism that results plus their high quality.

Katana, One thing that is amazing is First Legion claims their WWII range is 1/30 scale. K&C , TG, CS also claim 1/30 scale but the First Legion figures seem
tiny compared to the other 3 brands.My own preference is the size offered by the other 3 brands. Seems to be 3 to 1 here on depiction in size ?

Wayne

 

[TomNT]

Wayne; First Legion and W. Britains WWII figures measure from 58 to 62mm from top of base to top of head. K&C, TCS and TG WWII figures measure from 65 to 68mm. 1/30 scale is a 60mm tall figure. FL, WB and Kronprinze WWII figures are the correct size IMO. TCS, K&C and TG WWII figures are oversize and about 1/28 scale. The 60mm figures as measured are the most size compatible with Figarti, TG and Honor Bound Armor, which comprises most of my collection.
The popularity of FL WWII figures and Armor is based on their size compatibility and the realism that results plus their high quality.

The JJD Jagdpanther is also compatible in my opinion with the Britains, Kronprinz and FL 60mm figures. I also found that the HB figures (my HB Panthers tank crews) are also compatible with my JJD Jag as well as my Figarti armour, FL Tiger and most of my TG armour.

Tom