Jesuits (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter RAMC
- Start date
mikemiller1955
Lieutenant General
- Joined
- Aug 3, 2008
- Messages
- 17,490
I had asked him about this a long time ago...
I know he said he could not find a good reference for a building for a church...
mikemiller1955
Lieutenant General
- Joined
- Aug 3, 2008
- Messages
- 17,490
I'm sorry Blake...I was referring to the mission structure or any other structures in the St. Francis village...if I remember correctly...I think John intended to have only the village walls (already produced) represent St. Francis...with no buildings...
we did speak about a Jesuit priest also...
and I seem to remember him saying...
"I'll add it to my list"...
he is very nice about responding to emails from fans or collectors...
you might ask him again personally...
we did speak about a Jesuit priest also...
and I seem to remember him saying...
"I'll add it to my list"...
he is very nice about responding to emails from fans or collectors...
you might ask him again personally...
BlakeWR85
Specialist
- Joined
- Jan 21, 2010
- Messages
- 315
Hi Michael, thanks for the info. You're right, John is one of the nicest gentleman anyone could meet.
Sorry for the confusion, I meant RAMC's talk about a 'firebrand' priest
I tried finding a picture online of a painting that was done by Gary Zaboly, it's in the osprey book 'colonial ranger,' there is a St. Francis scene with a mission in the background. Zaboly is known for his historical accuracy, maybe he'd be worth a look, something John could model his mission after, that is if he'd decide to do one.
PolarBear
Major
- Joined
- Feb 24, 2007
- Messages
- 6,706
Hi Michael, thanks for the info. You're right, John is one of the nicest gentleman anyone could meet.
Sorry for the confusion, I meant RAMC's talk about a 'firebrand' priest
I tried finding a picture online of a painting that was done by Gary Zaboly, it's in the osprey book 'colonial ranger,' there is a St. Francis scene with a mission in the background. Zaboly is known for his historical accuracy, maybe he'd be worth a look, something John could model his mission after, that is if he'd decide to do one.
John has a copy of the Zaboly illustration and I sent him photos of 18th C style rural Canadian Catholic churches. I think the church Zaboly shows would be ideal. The Abenaki at St. Francis lived in wood frame houses not wigwams or longhouses. John knows that but it would be too costly to produce those kinds of structures. What he has done makes an excellent generic village for the Northeast.
Combat
Brigadier General
- Joined
- Jun 10, 2005
- Messages
- 10,261
Father Pierre-Joseph-Antoine Roubaub would be a must. I posted this before but since the subject has come up again it might be of interesting starting at the bottom of page 91:
http://books.google.com/books?id=Jn...=father pierre-joseph-antoine roubaud&f=false
http://books.google.com/books?id=Jn...=father pierre-joseph-antoine roubaud&f=false
mikemiller1955
Lieutenant General
- Joined
- Aug 3, 2008
- Messages
- 17,490
I think the problem with the Jesuit priest...was as I remember...was that there was no documentation that a priest was actually at St. Francis during the time of the raid...
not that a Jesuit priest would not make a nice small diorama...he would...and I would buy one...but he has not indicated that a priest is in the works to me or have I asked in the last 6 months...
the buildings or structures of St. Francis were more of a European style than long houses and wigwams...and as I remember...John had mentioned he had no accurate source to style one after...the cost may also have been a prohibitive factor too...but I wouldn't expect any from him...
not that a Jesuit priest would not make a nice small diorama...he would...and I would buy one...but he has not indicated that a priest is in the works to me or have I asked in the last 6 months...
the buildings or structures of St. Francis were more of a European style than long houses and wigwams...and as I remember...John had mentioned he had no accurate source to style one after...the cost may also have been a prohibitive factor too...but I wouldn't expect any from him...
Combat
Brigadier General
- Joined
- Jun 10, 2005
- Messages
- 10,261
Yes, he was not present on the day of the raid, but he was there the following day. I recall there is an accout in the recent Rogers book in which the priest gave the French military a good scolding. It would make for something different, but not as high on my list compared to French flag bearers, grenadiers and new Highlanders.
mikemiller1955
Lieutenant General
- Joined
- Aug 3, 2008
- Messages
- 17,490
I remember you making this comment some time ago when this subject was discussed...
still...I would buy the figure...
the Jesuit's influence on the Abenakis was monumental...
BlakeWR85
Specialist
- Joined
- Jan 21, 2010
- Messages
- 315
This was a movie that John actually recommended to me, haven't seen it yet, is is good? I only watched a trailer to the movie on youtube, looked neat though.
mikemiller1955
Lieutenant General
- Joined
- Aug 3, 2008
- Messages
- 17,490
Blake...he recommended it to me too...
I saw it and it was pretty darn good...
a rough hard life...very graphic with brutality...
I recommend it...it's a good watch...
the priests were never really accepted or trusted by the Indians...
brutal existence...
Combat
Brigadier General
- Joined
- Jun 10, 2005
- Messages
- 10,261
I haven't seen it in years, but recall it captured what must have been a strange and frightening experience for europeans who found themselves in N. America at that time. It's hard to imagine what that would have been like now.
BlakeWR85
Specialist
- Joined
- Jan 21, 2010
- Messages
- 315
Thanks mike and combat. The only thing I've heard about it was that some American Indian groups were upset about how they were portrayed with their brutality, but the film-makers said they had to scale back on the violence, because it was too much to show.
PolarBear
Major
- Joined
- Feb 24, 2007
- Messages
- 6,706
The Jesuit Relations
The Jesuit Relations, a series of reports from Jesuit missions in New France, were published annually in Paris between 1632 and 1673. The Society of Jesus, a Roman Catholic male order founded in 1540 by Ignatius Loyola (1491–1556) and whose members were known as Jesuits, viewed the preparation of such reports as part of their worldwide missionary program. But the Relations do more than narrate the Jesuits’ spiritual progress: they also present detailed views of the state of the French colony, accounts of expeditions to the interior of North America, and descriptions of the diverse Native American cultures of eastern Canada and the Great Lakes. The Relations were published by the French royal printer and seem to have reached a large audience. The excerpt in the book, for instance, includes testimony from Anne of Austria, the French queen, that she finds the story of Isaac Jogues’s sufferings more powerful than any romance.
In 1632, the year of the first Relation, the French began to rebuild settlements along the St. Lawrence River and to re-establish trade alliances with Montagnais, Huron, and Algonkian peoples, all of which had been disrupted by an English attack in 1629. In order to obtain greater control over the religiously divided colony and to compete with English settlements to the south, Cardinal Richelieu, the powerful chief minister of King Louis XIII, formed the Company of New France to manage the colony’s affairs. The company excluded from Canada both the Huguenots, French Protestants who had controlled the New France trade, and the Franciscan Récollets, rivals of the Jesuits. Richelieu granted the Jesuits a monopoly on missionary work and allowed them to operate as negotiators in the fur trade. By 1640, although the French population in Canada remained under four hundred, the Jesuits had amassed large landholdings and had sponsored the construction in Quebec of a college to educate the sons of French settlers, a hospital, and a convent for Ursuline nuns.
During this decade, the focus of the Jesuit missionary effort was Huronia, a region lying to the east of Lake Huron. The Hurons were sedentary agriculturists who also served as intermediaries in the fur trade, delivering high-quality furs from the north to French ships. The Jesuits had built five chapels in the Huron country by the late 1630s and were anticipating great spiritual success. Explanations for the relatively high number of Huron converts to Catholicism vary. Some scholars argue that the Jesuits’ importance in the economy of Huronia compelled the Hurons to follow their spiritual direction; others suggest that Hurons may have turned to the Jesuits’ religion when they began to suffer the effects of epidemic diseases.
However, in the early 1640s tensions between the French and their major enemy, the five Iroquois tribes, rose dramatically. The Five Nations were enduring population losses from disease and the economic challenge posed by French, Dutch, and English fur-trading companies, who sought alliances with rival Native American groups. In 1642, the Iroquois began a series of attacks upon the Hurons, themselves an Iroquoian-speaking people but long the enemies of the Five Nations. These attacks, known as “mourning-wars,” were intended not simply to spread death or destruction but to capture enemies. Following an often-grueling initiation period, these captives were either adopted into the clan or executed. By the 1650s, the Iroquois had forced the Jesuits to abandon their missions in Huronia and sparked a massive migration of Indian refugee populations to the west.
Father Isaac Jogues’s narrative, the centerpiece of the Relation for the year 1647, provides one view of the devastating French-Iroquois wars. Jogues’s first encounter with the Mohawks, one of the five Iroquois tribes, came in 1642, when he was captured along with several Frenchmen and Huron converts while traveling from the Huron country to Quebec. The Mohawks kept Jogues and the other captives, resisting ransom overtures, until Jogues managed to evade his captors and escape to the Dutch. Despite the tortures he endured, Jogues’s captivity was not entirely a nightmarish experience. Indeed, his ability to withstand punishment enhanced his reputation among the Mohawks. Jogues was adopted into the Wolf clan and visited Mohawk territory in 1646 to initiate a Jesuit mission in Iroquoia. The mission was short-lived: shortly after he returned to the Mohawks in 1647, Jogues was put to death, perhaps by Bear clan members angry over an outbreak of sickness that they blamed on the Jesuit.
Here is a link to some of the text of the Relations
There is a section on the Abenaki
http://puffin.creighton.edu/jesuit/relations/relations_01.html
The Jesuit Relations, a series of reports from Jesuit missions in New France, were published annually in Paris between 1632 and 1673. The Society of Jesus, a Roman Catholic male order founded in 1540 by Ignatius Loyola (1491–1556) and whose members were known as Jesuits, viewed the preparation of such reports as part of their worldwide missionary program. But the Relations do more than narrate the Jesuits’ spiritual progress: they also present detailed views of the state of the French colony, accounts of expeditions to the interior of North America, and descriptions of the diverse Native American cultures of eastern Canada and the Great Lakes. The Relations were published by the French royal printer and seem to have reached a large audience. The excerpt in the book, for instance, includes testimony from Anne of Austria, the French queen, that she finds the story of Isaac Jogues’s sufferings more powerful than any romance.
In 1632, the year of the first Relation, the French began to rebuild settlements along the St. Lawrence River and to re-establish trade alliances with Montagnais, Huron, and Algonkian peoples, all of which had been disrupted by an English attack in 1629. In order to obtain greater control over the religiously divided colony and to compete with English settlements to the south, Cardinal Richelieu, the powerful chief minister of King Louis XIII, formed the Company of New France to manage the colony’s affairs. The company excluded from Canada both the Huguenots, French Protestants who had controlled the New France trade, and the Franciscan Récollets, rivals of the Jesuits. Richelieu granted the Jesuits a monopoly on missionary work and allowed them to operate as negotiators in the fur trade. By 1640, although the French population in Canada remained under four hundred, the Jesuits had amassed large landholdings and had sponsored the construction in Quebec of a college to educate the sons of French settlers, a hospital, and a convent for Ursuline nuns.
During this decade, the focus of the Jesuit missionary effort was Huronia, a region lying to the east of Lake Huron. The Hurons were sedentary agriculturists who also served as intermediaries in the fur trade, delivering high-quality furs from the north to French ships. The Jesuits had built five chapels in the Huron country by the late 1630s and were anticipating great spiritual success. Explanations for the relatively high number of Huron converts to Catholicism vary. Some scholars argue that the Jesuits’ importance in the economy of Huronia compelled the Hurons to follow their spiritual direction; others suggest that Hurons may have turned to the Jesuits’ religion when they began to suffer the effects of epidemic diseases.
However, in the early 1640s tensions between the French and their major enemy, the five Iroquois tribes, rose dramatically. The Five Nations were enduring population losses from disease and the economic challenge posed by French, Dutch, and English fur-trading companies, who sought alliances with rival Native American groups. In 1642, the Iroquois began a series of attacks upon the Hurons, themselves an Iroquoian-speaking people but long the enemies of the Five Nations. These attacks, known as “mourning-wars,” were intended not simply to spread death or destruction but to capture enemies. Following an often-grueling initiation period, these captives were either adopted into the clan or executed. By the 1650s, the Iroquois had forced the Jesuits to abandon their missions in Huronia and sparked a massive migration of Indian refugee populations to the west.
Father Isaac Jogues’s narrative, the centerpiece of the Relation for the year 1647, provides one view of the devastating French-Iroquois wars. Jogues’s first encounter with the Mohawks, one of the five Iroquois tribes, came in 1642, when he was captured along with several Frenchmen and Huron converts while traveling from the Huron country to Quebec. The Mohawks kept Jogues and the other captives, resisting ransom overtures, until Jogues managed to evade his captors and escape to the Dutch. Despite the tortures he endured, Jogues’s captivity was not entirely a nightmarish experience. Indeed, his ability to withstand punishment enhanced his reputation among the Mohawks. Jogues was adopted into the Wolf clan and visited Mohawk territory in 1646 to initiate a Jesuit mission in Iroquoia. The mission was short-lived: shortly after he returned to the Mohawks in 1647, Jogues was put to death, perhaps by Bear clan members angry over an outbreak of sickness that they blamed on the Jesuit.
Here is a link to some of the text of the Relations
There is a section on the Abenaki
http://puffin.creighton.edu/jesuit/relations/relations_01.html
