Military history of the east (1 Viewer)

[Currahee Chris]

Hey fellas:

I came across an article discussing the ten deadliest wars in human history (quite rather morbid :redface2. Anyway, WW2 is of course, the worst in terms of total casualties but the second was the An Lushan Rebellion which took place in China in 755-63. 33-36M people were estimated to be killed in that time frame and from an overall percentage of total human population killed- it dwarfed WW2 (3.1% against 15%). Even more shocking to me was the fact that WW1 was the sixth worst behind the Tai Ping Rebellion and Qing dynasty overthrow.

So, it got me thinking- so much is known about our "Western" wars but does anyone have any resources on Eastern wars- I feel like I am only seeing half the puzzle. Anyone with points to discuss on the wars of:
China,
India (pre-Empire- my knowledge is limited to Alexander),
Egypt (for a world power that reigned so long they seem noticeably absent in this area)
Ancient Persia (I am starting to see them through the lense of the Romans)

I would really like to hear.

Thanks
CC

 

[Currahee Chris]

Dang yo, all I'm hearing over here is the chirp of the crickets.... guess this was a big goose egg {sm4}

Alright- how about the Kursk of its day- also believed to be the oldest recorded battle which resulted in the earliest peace treaty- the Battle of Qadesh in Syria- 5-6,000 chariots!!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Qadesh

 

[DMNamiot]

Hi Chris,

I was thinking over this one and its difficult to make a choice on what to discuss. The Wars of Asia were usually massive and bloody so to pick one or two that were truely massive I would think that you would need to look to the Mongolian Empire and its near total destruction or subjegation of all of Asia and a large chunck or Eastern Europe and Russia. They were pretty effective at slaughter so without any good references I would have to leave it at this. Probably too 1:1 or 1: over the World or massive in scale as opposed to say the Taiping Rebellion. But thats the best I can do right now.

Dave

 

[Jack]

I think one of the problems is not just a lack of interest in Eastern wars but the barrier of language. I did an online course in Japanese Military History from an American Uni which was quite fascinating but something as basic as the names of the people involved made it very difficult to read widely and quickly. Of course this was made even worse by a lack of knowledge of the big events in their history to give context. Military History should not stand in isolation as it occurs as part of the broadersweep of events, so even if you do not know much about WW1, you would know that advances in technology via industrialisation and the rivalry over Empires made a contribution to the outbreak and subsequent course of the war. I was completely ignorant of even the big events and couldn't really place anything in context. It was a good reminder though, of how differently people from a different culture and time view things. Will keep an eye on this thread and try to learn something!

 

[Currahee Chris]

I think one of the problems is not just a lack of interest in Eastern wars but the barrier of language. I did an online course in Japanese Military History from an American Uni which was quite fascinating but something as basic as the names of the people involved made it very difficult to read widely and quickly. Of course this was made even worse by a lack of knowledge of the big events in their history to give context. Military History should not stand in isolation as it occurs as part of the broadersweep of events, so even if you do not know much about WW1, you would know that advances in technology via industrialisation and the rivalry over Empires made a contribution to the outbreak and subsequent course of the war. I was completely ignorant of even the big events and couldn't really place anything in context. It was a good reminder though, of how differently people from a different culture and time view things. Will keep an eye on this thread and try to learn something!

This is such an excellent post and so very true in my case. I have taken masters level courses related to Korean culture and found myself in the same situation. .When one looks at the broad, sweeping history of China there are so many different levels that can lead to confusion- names, places, dynastic periods. So, I do hope some of our friends have some knowledge to share- it's interesting because I am sure there are individuals in those countries who might have problems learning about the west for the same reasons.

Here's to hoping we can get this thread going. {bravo}}

 

[glossman]

The subject of the Military History of China is so vast with wars and battles by the hundreds. I tried to do a chronological summary based on a variety of references, but found the task too daunting.

Despite a plethora of wars and battles to choose from, it was not so easy to decide on the most significant in terms of shaping the future of Chinese and Asian civilisation.

The Military History of China may be divided into 3 main periods: (1) Ancient China, (2) Imperial China & (3) Post-1911 China.

Here is a link to the Wikipedia article that provides a chronological overview of the subject.

Link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_history_of_China_(pre-1911)

I hope this helps to focus further discussion.

Raymond

 

[glossman]

Here is a list of several little-known Asian battles that had a impact on world history.

These battles span the centuries, from Gaugamela in 331 BC to Kohima in World War II. While each involved different armies and issues, these obscure battles changed Asia and the world.

Link: http://asianhistory.about.com/od/warsinasia/tp/10-Wars-That-Changed-Asia.htm

Raymond

 

[Currahee Chris]

Hoaah Raymond!!

Nice work bud. I am pretty familiar with Gaugemela given my particular interests. Was unaware of the time period breakdowns of China however- I had a feeling that ancient china and dynatic china were all sort of the same thing but apparently that isnt the case. Lots to digest in that material.

Cheers
CC

 

[Scott]

This is reverse engineering. The Chinese have been making historical epic movies such as Red Cliff and 1911. I have noticed that Wikipedia will have entries on these films and the historical incidents portrayed with links to these historical entries.

Wikipedia of course has only the "short form" but has the reference works below for further study. You can skip the films and go right to the written sources although Red Cliff is pretty good.

I have a couple of the Osprey books on the Taiping and Boxer rebellions which of course are only "short form" for the miniature collector or war gamer.

 

[glossman]

Hoaah Raymond!!

Nice work bud. I am pretty familiar with Gaugemela given my particular interests. Was unaware of the time period breakdowns of China however- I had a feeling that ancient china and dynatic china were all sort of the same thing but apparently that isnt the case. Lots to digest in that material.

Cheers
CC

Chris,

Here are some of additional comments on Ancient and Imperial China that may help getting a grip on the subject.

The Ancient China period was characterised by widespread internecine "little wars" between feuding warlords all vying for supremacy. Each warlord presided over a "little kingdom" with a small army of mainly peasant levies poorly trained and equipped. The Warring States period is a good example of this characterisation. Despite the continual strife, this era witnessed some remarkable intellectual ferment by Chinese philosphers including Confucius, Mencius and Sun-Tzu (The Art of War).

The Qin Dynasty ushered in the era of Imperial China. The Qin became the dominant power when they neutralised the other little kingdoms. The Qin under the leadership of Qin Shi Huang (period of reign: 246 to 211 BC) united China and become its first Emperor. He established a centralised system of government which would serve subsequent dynasties for years to come. The Qin created China’s first professional army, replacing the aristocrats with professional generals and the peasants levies with career soldiers. Qin Shi Huan also ordered the building of the Great Wall of China as we see it today. Under the Qin and following Han Dynasties, the Chinese conquered territories and established China's frontiers near to what it is today. China was now unified, but not for long as the Manchus and Mongols had yet to have their say.

As I mentioned in my previous post, I would have preferred to do my own chronological summary, but my work schedule does not permit the time.

Raymond.

 

[The Military Workshop]

I agree with Jack about the names of people and place names. When K&C brought out the two recent Imperial Chinese leaders I did look them up. I found it quite confusing as I have when looking up Japanese history. I have no concept of their history timeline and this is not helped by the movies where they look similar although could be depicting events a thousand years apart.

Strangely enough watched Red Cliff part 1 last night. That was a spectacular battle scene where the cavalry got sucked into the 'turtle'. Reminded me of the French cavalry v British squares in Waterloo.

Regarding chariots at Quadesh, wonder if they were they Mk III's or IV's{sm4}

Regards
Brett

 

[glossman]

*
This videoclip is on the First Emperor of Imperial China - Qin Shi Huang of the Qin Dynasty. He was also known as the Warrior King.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eqV901J5Pw4

[Credit: The National Geographic Channel]

Raymond

 

[glossman]

In 1912, the Qing Dynasty was overthrown in a rebellion led by a nationalist Dr. Sun Yat-Sen. The last Emperor Pu Yi abdicated.

China became a republic with Dr. Sun as the provisional president. Thus, the sun had finally set on Imperial China, an era which had lasted for more than a thousand years.

Here is a link to: The Last Dynasty of the Qing.

http://www.allempires.com/article/index.php?q=The_Qing_Empire

Raymond

 

[Currahee Chris]

Regarding chariots at Quadesh, wonder if they were they Mk III's or IV's{sm4}

Regards
Brett

That is really funny!! {sm4}{bravo}}

Probably Mark III's though I hear the Mark IV's had room for a driver and 3-4 archers.

@Glossman- thanks for the videos and links very informative!

 

[glossman]

The Mongol Empire emerged in 1206 under the fiery leadership of Genghis Khan who became the supreme ruler of the Mongols and other warring tribes of the Steppes of Central Asia. The Mongols conquered vast territories and built an empire (when at its largest) extended from the Danude River in the West to the Yellow Sea in the East.

Kublai Khan, the grandson of Genghis Khan deposed the Song Dynasty in China. In 1271, Kublai renamed the new Mongol regime in China as the Yuan Dynasty proclaiming himself as the Emperor of China. Kublai Khan moved his headquarters to the present site of the capital of modern day China ie: Beijing. The Mongols were the first non-Chinese people to conquer all of China. This did not last. In 1368, the Ming Dynasty ousted the Mongols who eventually returned to the steppes of Central Asia.

Here is a link to the Wikipedia article that provides a chronological overview of the subject.

Link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongol_Empire

Raymond{sm2}