Napoleon thread 2 (1 Viewer)

[Rob]

As i am feeling guilty for my part in the closure of the last thread(sorry again louis)i'm starting a new one.

What one thing do you think cost Napoleon the day at Waterloo?.Would appreciate your views as i am a newby to this.

Rob

 

[wellington]

I think possibly his cancer and the boot syndrome..... LOL......

Seriously....the the fact that Napoleon liked Artillery so much and he depended on it greatly.....the rain had softened the ground and his artillery wasn't as effective as it had been in previous battles...Wellington didn't like artillery and he relied onit very little so it had very little consequence to him.
Personally I love Artillery and it was a great weapon for its time.....


WELLINGTON

 

[aujj65]

Hi Guys.

Rob

One of the reasons that cost the French the battle IMO was that the French cavalry attacked without Infantry support, Big mistake!
The British squares suffered greatly from artillery fire but if they had been attacked by infantry that would have been a different matter.

Jeff

 

[wellington]

Both are good reasons.......another reason was also the fact that Wellington knew the Battle Field and planned the ground he fought on...he used the landscape to his advantage.


WELLINGTON

 

[aujj65]

W.

To deviate slightly... do you have any of the Scots greys? I am waiting for the Sgt Ewart set and a few more French Infantry to arrive in the post. What do you think of them?

Jeff

 

[fishead19690]

I think possibly his cancer and the boot syndrome..... LOL......

Seriously....the the fact that Napoleon liked Artillery so much and he depended on it greatly.....the rain had softened the ground and his artillery wasn't as effective as it had been in previous battles...Wellington didn't like artillery and he relied onit very little so it had very little consequence to him.
Personally I love Artillery and it was a great weapon for its time.....


WELLINGTON

Wellington I think your a little confused about the fact that wellington didn,t like artillary any good general of the time or even a bad one for that matter could see the importance of artillary on any field of battle and it was a very important and munch needed tool and was the cause of most casaulties. I think you may be confusing the fact that wellington hated rockets with artillary. Rockets were a new form of artillary that were very unaccurate and at times could take out as many of their own men as their foes!

Wellington used his artillary very well at waterloo and had a major advantage over the french in the form of spherical case shot which was a hollow canon ball filled with shrapnel which had a fuse and would go off in the air showering the field with smaller shot and taking out many troops. Many of the french attacking hougomont fell to this form of shot and this kind of shot would also not slow and get stuck in the mud as it went off before hitting the ground if the fuse was set right. This was a secret weapon of the british at the time and not used by other nations.

As to the one thing that cost napoleon the battle of waterloo it had to be hands down the arrival of the prussains but you could make a very good sized list of things that also added up to costing him the battle.

One would be the delay of starting the battle for the field to dry that allowed the prussains to arrive in time which was a mistake because the field would have taken a day or two to dry to improve. I think the delayed arrival of the gaurd units to the battle field was also a reason for the delay.

The focus on hougomont which was ment to be a deversion to weaken the center was a mistake as it tied up to many troops and I think he should have tried to out flank it to the left and not have made all those funeled attacks between the two farm house stong hold postions or he should have broght in artillary to destroy the walls and weaken the postions.

Wellington feared that napoleon might try to out flank his right and placed troops there out past hougomont which didn,t see munch action, I wonder what the outcome would have been had he tried, but napoleon didn,t seem to put munch effort into the battle plan after it had begun and sat out a lot of the battle leaving Ney in charge. I think a better marshall like davout should have been taken along and grouchy the newest marshall was a bad choice.

The early unsupported cavalry attacks and napoleons refuseal to send in the gaurd at point at which wellingtons center was about to be crushed around the time of the capture of la haie sainte which allowed wellington time to send in critical reserves also all added to the defeat.

There are many more things that added to the defeat but these are some of the main reasons.

 

[wellington]

Here we go again......from the books I have read...and I have read books on the subject...and NOT comic books...Wellington didn't think Artillery was as important as Napoleon did, nobody said he didn't use it or appreciate it...thats my opinion and that was what I have read....Obviosly what ever I have to say on this subject will be rebutted by someone so I'm not going to bother with the subject anymore....Thanks Rob no offence against you just tired of being corrected on everything I have to say or can contribute, bigger fish in the sea to fry....

Cheers
WELLINGTON

 

[fishead19690]

Here we go again......from the books I have read...and I have read books on the subject...and NOT comic books...Wellington didn't think Artillery was as important as Napoleon did, nobody said he didn't use it or appreciate it...thats my opinion and that was what I have read....Obviosly what ever I have to say on this subject will be rebutted by someone so I'm not going to bother with the subject anymore....Thanks Rob no offence against you just tired of being corrected on everything I have to say or can contribute, bigger fish in the sea to fry....

Cheers
WELLINGTON

I,m sorry wellington I did not mean to affend you and I just thought you may have had the fact that wellington hated rockets mixed up with artillary I will try in the future to not correct you if you promise not to fry me and easy with the BIG comments!!! Lets get back to talking toy soldiers because these history lessons are getting as violent as the battles themselfs! No more stabs at boney and i,ll leave my comments about hook nose out also, AGREED?

 

[wellington]

...................................agreed.....................................



wellington

 

[Combat]

As i am feeling guilty for my part in the closure of the last thread(sorry again louis)i'm starting a new one.

What one thing do you think cost Napoleon the day at Waterloo?.Would appreciate your views as i am a newby to this.

Rob

I'm not an expert, but based on what I do know:

1) the French were outnumbered - particularly when the Prussians are taken into consideration

2) Napoleon's Marshals performed horribly that day. Ney with his calvalry charge into the British squares and Grouchy wandering off with 30,000 troops that never found their way into the battle.

 

[jazzeum]

I think the conversation that the two of you are having is exactly the kind of conversation this board should be having, disagreements about the relative importance of artillery vs. rockets or why a battle/war was won or lost. This is quite different than the prior closed thread and I, for one, am impressed by the knowledge that the both of you have. It shows your passion for your area of concentration.

 

[wellington]

Actually what I read was that Napoleon was once in the Artillery and as a result he had a greater respect and understanding for Artillery and didn't view it as a secondary use of force but perhaps a primary use of force to soften the enemy up prior to his attacks, this is why maybe he was so effective with his guns. I also read (not sure if it's true) but Wellington looked at Artillery as a second class Unit with limitations. Can't remember where I picked this information up but it stuck in my mind......I guess the truth is only one man can really answer that and he is dead.


WELLINGTON

As for rockets....no one trusted them......If someone could verify that Napoleon was in the Artillery...that would be great.

 

[fishead19690]

Actually what I read was that Napoleon was once in the Artillery and as a result he had a greater respect and understanding for Artillery and didn't view it as a secondary use of force but perhaps a primary use of force to soften the enemy up prior to his attacks, this is why maybe he was so effective with his guns. I also read (not sure if it's true) but Wellington looked at Artillery as a second class Unit with limitations. Can't remember where I picked this information up but it stuck in my mind......I guess the truth is only one man can really answer that and he is dead.


WELLINGTON

As for rockets....no one trusted them......If someone could verify that Napoleon was in the Artillery...that would be great.

Yes napoleon was trained in the military academy in france to be an artillary officer and was a very good student and very good at math and was a good gunner as a result and would at times even aim the guns himself even in later battles. It was durring the revolution that he came to fame with his famous wiff off grape shot to repel the angry mobs that got him his first step up the latter.

I can,t recall reading anything of wellington not liking artillary other then the fact that maybe he didn,t like the way in which it was run which was what seemed to me to be one of there best systems.
The british artillary was run different then the rest of the army and was kind of its own system and was the only part of the british army that didn,t sell its comissions to be an officer and the only part of the army where an average soldier could rise through the ranks beyond a sergant on his abilities as opposed to his birth and wealth and as a result had great leadership.
This may have been a reason for wellingtons dislike of the artillary if he had one.
Who wants to have any of those ungentalmen like scum leading the troops?

 

[The Lt.]

As a former Artillery Officer It's well known the Artillery is know as the King of Battle. We from time to time have had difference with The Infantry known as Queen of Battle who from time to time told us where to but our BALLS.( Cannon That Is) The Lt.

 

[fishead19690]

As a former Artillery Officer It's well known the Artillery is know as the King of Battle. We from time to time have had difference with The Infantry known as Queen of Battle who from time to time told us where to but our BALLS.( Cannon That Is) The Lt.

Easy there Joe! Brad already closed one Napoleon thread on us already!

 

[Fubar]

So much about this battle is still controversial after nearly 200 years and being simply an armchair General I always feel awkward making comments.Heres a few things that come to my fuzzy brain that I recall from my comic books and Golden book of the how and why for the battle of Waterloo.

Napoleon splitting his forces and letting Grouchy slip the leash to follow the Prussians after Ligny.
Attacking Hougomont at all rather than screening and isolating the place.Thousands of Troops commited and lost for nothing.
The Macedonian formations used by 1st Corps in their attack.Never were able to deploy to fight effectively and were routed by the British Cavalry charge.
Of course the French Cavalry charges. A tragedy.Alo could have crippled the British Artillery as they were overrun numerous times, spiking gear was in the arty train.
Not commiting the Guard earlier since the cavalry was already{ mistakenly} commited.
There are so many, what if's, if only etc etc.
Both sides made mistakes or at least the sub commanders did. Remember the Prince of Orange and the KGL and Hanoverian Battalions he kept sending into disaster?
In the end it seems like the Allies made less mistakes when the clock ran out.

Thats my vastly over simplified 2 bits.

Heres some old Pix LT. Just for you.

FubAr

 

[fishead19690]

Harold your pictures didn,t come out can you give it another try, I always love to see your great dioramas.
And yes the british had a few mishaps in the battle also mostly by letting that clown prince of orange any where near the battlefield! He got many good men killed for not forming square in the face of cavalry. A mistake that even the greeniest of soldiers would know. And lets not forget the scotts greys who don,t know when to quit and got them self whipped out by french lanciers in their made rush to cut up french gunners.
There were also many prussains killed by the british who were mistaken for french when they came up on wellingtons right flank.

 

[The Lt.]

Me To

 

[kilted vampire]

Netflix/waterlooCheck it out the 1970 made movie has thousands of extras no CGIs here my friends. The movie seems to follow closely the events leading to and during the course of Waterloo.There may not be one thing that led to the unfortunate outcome of Waterloo.But , then who is to say it was the right outcome. Regardless If Napoleon had been in his prime Wellington may have found his role reversed.
My guess is that even the Empereur may not even have figured out what went wrong. Or, more importantly what else could have gone wrong.It seems like a series of unfortunate circumstances and misunderstandings led him to his waterloo.
A successful battle plan is one that lasts five minutes.

One thing is clear to me. Even if Napoleon had won,England would not have stopped . It would have cost thousands of more lives. They were that afraid of him and what he stood for.

 

[Stickleback]

W.

To deviate slightly... do you have any of the Scots greys? I am waiting for the Sgt Ewart set and a few more French Infantry to arrive in the post. What do you think of them?

Jeff

Hi Jeff,

Sorry to butt in (I know your question was directed at Wellington) but for what it's worth - I saved my pennies and bought a full set of the Scots Greys last year and also received the recently released French infantry as a Christmas present from my wife (yes that's right "from my wife" - read it and weep!). To my mind the Scots Greys are some of the best Napoleonics that K&C have released to date. You won't be disappointed with your Sgt Ewart. The French 45th are great too and work really well when displayed with the Scots Greys.

Adrian