Ok....my final and definitive Round Top question!! (1 Viewer)

[Rob]

Right, so Dan has posted some truly wonderful pics of LRT in the Gettysburg thread , they are of huge help but I just need to nail this point.

One pic shows the position of the 20th Maine with a fairly heavily wooded area to their front. Another shows the rocky slope up to the top. So my question is, did the Rebs advance up this Rocky part of the slope AND THEN through theses trees to get at the 20th Maine? If so were they under fire all the way and from whom? OR were there Union troops at the top of the Rocky slope and not all in the trees??

Sorry this question is convoluted but I need to get the terrain/troop sequence right if I'm ever going to produce a dio of it.

Thanks for any help and thanks again Dan for your terrific pics.

Rob

 

[Barksdale]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Little_Round_Top1.png Try this picture. It shows tree lines from 1863 (approx)

 

[Rob]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Little_Round_Top1.png Try this picture. It shows tree lines from 1863 (approx)

Thanks for pic Barksdale. Am trying to ascertain if the Rebs met resistance at top of slope or went straight through trees to get to Union line?

Rob

 

[Phantom Warrior]

Thanks for pic Barksdale. Am trying to ascertain if the Rebs met resistance at top of slope or went straight through trees to get to Union line?

Rob

Here is what I think is a good summary of the battle for Little Round top. It describes Little Round Top as heavily deforested. http://www.historynet.com/little-round-top

Other references describe LRT as more suitable for troops as it was cleared of trees whereas Round Top was heavily treed.

There are photos showing the slope and summit of LRT as bare, rock strewn ground on the west and southwest part of LRT but treed on the southeast slope where the 20th Maine were at the end of the line. In the photos, the 20th Maine is well to the right of the monument and mostly out of the photo. So it depends where on which slope of LRT you are doing the dio. Hope that helps.

Terry

 

[Barksdale]

From what I have read, they met resistance at the bare, rocky part. The 15 and 47 Alabama continued on through the woods to try and find the flank of army and then turn it. That's how they ended up on the flank is because they met stiff resistance on the front. Since the "front door was locked, they tried the back door." I think the picture I attached earlier does a really good job of explaining how things unfolded that evening on that hill.

 

[Rob]

Here is what I think is a good summary of the battle for Little Round top. It describes Little Round Top as heavily deforested. http://www.historynet.com/little-round-top

Other references describe LRT as more suitable for troops as it was cleared of trees whereas Round Top was heavily treed.

There are photos showing the slope and summit of LRT as bare, rock strewn ground.

Excellent, thanks for this, should be a big help.

Rob

 

[Phantom Warrior]

Welcome. I think the 2nd photo at the extreme right shows the trees the 20th maine were in

Terry

 

[lancer]

Please understand that the excellent photos do not show the position of the 20th Maine, but rather the front slopes of LRT. The 20th Maine was on the wooded flank, to the right (of the photos) and out of sight of the photos, and was attacked by the Alabama regiments who descended the slope of Big Round Top, crossed the saddle and attacked uphill on LRT, through the woods. The map in the posted link is excellent for understanding the position. -- Al

 

[Phantom Warrior]

Please understand that the excellent photos do not show the position of the 20th Maine, but rather the front slopes of LRT. The 20th Maine was on the wooded flank, to the right and out of sight of the photos, and was attacked by the Alabama regiments who descended the slope of Big Round Top, crossed the saddle and attacked uphill on LRT, through the woods. The map in the posted link is excellent for understanding the position. -- Al

Exactly. I added to my post trying to say what you just said. :redface2: Which gives Rob a choice of bare rocky slope or treed slope.

Here is the view the 20th Maine had from their position in the trees looking down at Alabama coming up through the trees and rocks. I think what causes some historical confusion is the Gettysburgh movies focus on Chamberlaine in the trees of the southeast slope but don't show the bare sw slope giving the impression the whole of LRT was treed.

 

[Combat]

LRT is steep and rocky. More so than pictures depict. It would be difficult to run up the hill even if no one was shooting at you. It amazes me that the Confederates simply didn't go around it into the rear of the Union line. Apparently they believed LRT was unoccupied or lightly defended earlier in the day. However, they knew this wasn't the case by the time the attack was ready. In 1863 it was difficult to change battle tactics once armies were in motion. And altering plans was met with confusion and delay allowing the enemy an opportunity to take counter measures. I think once Lee made his plans and issued his orders he believed it was better to carry on than to make any major changes. Even when presented with evidence that certain assumptions upon which those orders were based was wrong and reasonable alternatives were suggested, he simply believed it was better to proceed as planned.

The battlefield has changed a great deal in many places from 1863. For example, there are many more trees today than 150 years ago. Much of the battlefield was farm land and kept cleared at the time. So it's often difficult to have any perspective on what it looked like in July 1863. What might have been a clear line of sight in 1863 is now entirely blocked by forest. There are some interesting books that compare the scenes from today and 1863. The local cable TV station has made available some great video tours of the battlefield conducted by the park rangers. They tend to focus on highly specific and detailed aspects of the battle (not for the novice):

https://www.pcnstore.com/index.php?cPath=29&osCsid=185grb1607eb6flohm0usbrsn3

 

[6th Wisconsin]

It looks like Al beat me to some of the response I was formulating. Everything I have read about Little Round Top, including books on that specific portion of the field and the 20th Maine, confirms what Al is saying. The Alabama troops assaulting the end of the line crossed over part of Big Round Top, which was more wooded. The area between the two is often called the saddle. They would have advanced up and over part of the larger hill, dropped down into the lower saddle and then marched upward again before encountering Chamberlain's line. I have also read that the troops on Little Round Top were not actually positioned at the very top of the hill, but on the rockier portion a little below the top. This would be a pretty typical deployment on what is referred to as the "military crest" of a hill. Some monuments are placed further down the hill, such as the 16th's Michigan. Another point is that many accounts say that we should not conceive of Chamberlain's position as a static location, as it would have moved backward and forward during the fight.

I have a good guide to Little Round Top at home. I will try to take another look at it this evening to see what it says about the ground and vegetation. I also have some Now and Then photo guides that might help.

 

[Rob]

Please understand that the excellent photos do not show the position of the 20th Maine, but rather the front slopes of LRT. The 20th Maine was on the wooded flank, to the right (of the photos) and out of sight of the photos, and was attacked by the Alabama regiments who descended the slope of Big Round Top, crossed the saddle and attacked uphill on LRT, through the woods. The map in the posted link is excellent for understanding the position. -- Al

Thanks for that Al

Exactly. I added to my post trying to say what you just said. :redface2: Which gives Rob a choice of bare rocky slope or treed slope.

Here is the view the 20th Maine had from their position in the trees looking down at Alabama coming up through the trees and rocks. I think what causes some historical confusion is the Gettysburgh movies focus on Chamberlaine in the trees of the southeast slope but don't show the bare sw slope giving the impression the whole of LRT was treed.

Yes yes yes! That's just what I needed thank you Terry.

Yes yes yes! That's just what I needed thank you Terry.

LRT is steep and rocky. More so than pictures depict. It would be difficult to run up the hill even if no one was shooting at you. It amazes me that the Confederates simply didn't go around it into the rear of the Union line. Apparently they believed LRT was unoccupied or lightly defended earlier in the day. However, they knew this wasn't the case by the time the attack was ready. In 1863 it was difficult to change battle tactics once armies were in motion. And altering plans was met with confusion and delay allowing the enemy an opportunity to take counter measures. I think once Lee made his plans and issued his orders he believed it was better to carry on than to make any major changes. Even when presented with evidence that certain assumptions upon which those orders were based was wrong and reasonable alternatives were suggested, he simply believed it was better to proceed as planned.

Do agree Doug, you simply couldn't run up there could you, it may not be mountain climbing but sure wouldn't be easy!


So guys I may have my definitive answer! I could produce a thin layer of trees with slope behind ..full of Rebs! Thanks ever so much to all of you, this forum is SO GOOD at getting answers like this. A few mins ago I looked at members online and SIX people were answering this thread!:salute::

Rob

 

[Phantom Warrior]

LRT is steep and rocky. More so than pictures depict. It would be difficult to run up the hill even if no one was shooting at you. It amazes me that the Confederates simply didn't go around it into the rear of the Union line. Apparently they believed LRT was unoccupied or lightly defended earlier in the day. However, they knew this wasn't the case by the time the attack was ready. In 1863 it was difficult to change battle tactics once armies were in motion. And altering plans was met with confusion and delay allowing the enemy an opportunity to take counter measures. I think once Lee made his plans and issued his orders he believed it was better to carry on than to make any major changes. Even when presented with evidence that certain assumptions upon which those orders were based was wrong and reasonable alternatives were suggested, he simply believed it was better to proceed as planned.

I find battlefield photos don't show the steepness of slopes very well, especially when taken from the bottom of the hill. For anyone who skiis, the slope up the hill is always steeper in person looking up the slope and much, much steeper looking down from the top. {eek3}^&grin

Terry

 

[Rob]

Also having read Terry's link and looked at Dan's pics it becomes clear that the rocks are not just strewn anywhere, they are indeed in ledges which whilst offering cover on the one hand would also be an obstacle to get over especially under fire.

Now if I could just find out what Trees they are..............................but I don't want to p*** you guys off so I won't ask!!^&grin:wink2:

Rob

 

[6th Wisconsin]

Aha Rob. That is the same question I have had with regards to doing a diorama. What species of trees grew on the slopes during the battle? I wish I had asked a ranger.

 

[Phantom Warrior]

Aha Rob. That is the same question I have had with regards to doing a diorama. What species of trees grew on the slopes during the battle? I wish I had asked a ranger.

Here's where my high school Geography pays off. :rolleyes2: The original old forest in the area was White Oak, Northern Red Oak and some Ash trees. Many of the trees on Round Top are old forest. There are areas where the trees were never cleared because of the very rocky ground which made tree harvesting difficult. Also important is that the trees on the rocky slopes were stunted (shorter and thinner trunks) due to the rocky ground as opposed to flatter better soil fields in the area which became farmland before the Civil War. Some photos show the occasional pine tree, but I don't think they are original growth and likely grew after partial clearing LRT.

I don't really know how this will help? How do you model trees to look like Oak as opposed to maple or walnut. They don't stand out like pine or white birch? They all look like green leafy trees in Summer and bare branches in Winter.

Terry

 

[Rob]

Aha Rob. That is the same question I have had with regards to doing a diorama. What species of trees grew on the slopes during the battle? I wish I had asked a ranger.

Here's where my high school Geography pays off. :rolleyes2: The original old forest in the area was White Oak, Northern Red Oak and some Ash trees. Many of the trees on Round Top are old forest. There are areas where the trees were never cleared because of the very rocky ground which made tree harvesting difficult. Also important is that the trees on the rocky slopes were stunted (shorter and thinner trunks) due to the rocky ground as opposed to flatter better soil fields in the area which became farmland before the Civil War. Some photos show the occasional pine tree, but I don't think they are original growth and likely grew after partial clearing LRT.

I don't really know how this will help? How do you model trees to look like Oak as opposed to maple or walnut. They don't stand out like pine or white birch? They all look like green leafy trees in Summer and bare branches in Winter.

Terry

Thanks for this, very informative.It maybe a matter of putting in trees that look ok if the actual can't be found. About half an hour ago I emailed the park itself so maybe they can also shed some light.

Rob

 

[6th Wisconsin]

Earlier today, I listened to Civil War Traveler's podcast on Little Round Top. The narrator said the tree cover at the site of the 20th Maine's lines gives a good indication of what the wooded areas were like at the time of the battle, not having a lot of undergrowth and being somewhat open. The narrator also discussed the development of the attack by the Alabama regiments. The attack developed from the 20th's right, with the Maine troops and the 83rd PA driving back the first regiment in a crossfire. The 15th Alabama came up farther to the right, eventually trying to pin the middle and right of Chamberlain's men in place while swinging around the flank. This was the reason for Chamberlain's refusing the line. According to the podcast, it was this thinner, refused portion of the line that frequently changed positions during the fight.