Somme Artistic Licence? (1 Viewer)

[Isandlwana]

As I understand it the "missing" WW1 numbers will feature an aid station/post with trench segment add on. This will involve a piece of trench being added on to the back of artillery piece 23021 and gun emplacement piece 51009 so it will be like a reserve trench in effect.

I'm fairly new to the history of WW1 and have mainly concentrated on the eastern campaigns. My question is this - was the artillery ever placed in the front line during the Somme? The new WW1 trench pieces are designed to incorporate the earlier artillery piece but is such a diorama historically accurate or is it artistic licence? I can't find any evidence of 18 pounders being in or near the front line.

 

[villagehorse]

Not sure either, my area is WW11, but someone on the forum will know and set it straight. This new diorama section sounds exciting, will gladly add it on, have aid vehicle and workers waiting, thanks for the intel, cheers, Robin.

 

[waynepoo]

As I understand it the "missing" WW1 numbers will feature an aid station/post with trench segment add on. This will involve a piece of trench being added on to the back of artillery piece 23021 and gun emplacement piece 51009 so it will be like a reserve trench in effect.

I'm fairly new to the history of WW1 and have mainly concentrated on the eastern campaigns. My question is this - was the artillery ever placed in the front line during the Somme? The new WW1 trench pieces are designed to incorporate the earlier artillery piece but is such a diorama historically accurate or is it artistic licence? I can't find any evidence of 18 pounders being in or near the front line.

I am no expert either but I doubt that artillery would have been placed in the front line like that if only that the poor old infantry would have told them to bugger off as it would have drawn German fire like bees to honey.
Wayne.

 

[DMNamiot]

Hi Guys,

I will depend on what gun is being used. There was a lot of artillery that was deployed up close and personal especially of the French 75 as we call it in the states. There was also a lot of Trench Mortars in use by both sides of various calibers so while the big guns of say 100mm and up were generally a bit father back there was still a lot of indirect fire weapons in the front lines. Later in the war the Germans were using their guns in direct fire mode against Tanks along with their trench mortars which I found an interesting photo rcently showing a trench mortar in an almost horizontal lay being used against a tank. I dont have the referce with me as I am currently in Budapest on holiday but I will be happy to dig it out when I return home in 6 days.

Dave

 

[Hazebrouck]

I'm fairly new to the history of WW1 and have mainly concentrated on the eastern campaigns. My question is this - was the artillery ever placed in the front line during the Somme? The new WW1 trench pieces are designed to incorporate the earlier artillery piece but is such a diorama historically accurate or is it artistic licence? I can't find any evidence of 18 pounders being in or near the front line.

Isandlwana,

I have a bit of an interest in this and here is my understanding from the British perspective.

It depends what you mean by the Somme. The Somme valley was a large area with action throughout the war.

If you are talking about the Somme offensive that began on 1 July 1916 through to November 1916, in particular the 1st of July then the answer is no, the frontline and reserve trenches were packed full of infantry.

Artillery was placed to the rear of the infantry reserve lines during the first three weeks of June 1916 in preparation for the five days of bombardment of the German lines prior to the 1st July attack. Keep in mind that this was the largest concentration of artillery seen at the time. Ammunition columns were placed further back still and ammunition was sent up by wagons as needed.

The closest artillery man to the frontline would be the forward observation officer who would generally be in an observation post or reserve lines, occasionally further forward following an advance or even an observation balloon. Not a cushy job by any means.

The guns were on the whole emplaced and it sounds like the section of trench you are talking is part of the emplacement. Counter battery fire was a reality and trenches and dugouts provided protection to the artillerymen, signals and command staff. Counter battery fire would be reason enough to remove them away from the infantry.

However as Dave says artillery was often used in different modes depending on the type of gun and circumstances.

Scott

 

[Obee]

Like Hazebrouck states,

the Artillery was behind the infantry front line, but due to counter bombardment, they would need protection.

The 18 Pounder had an effective range of 6km, therefore they would have to be closer than that on a offensive in order not to 'drop short' on the 'poor bloody infantry'.

This is an image of an Aussie battery at Ypers without a gun pit

and this a Bullecourt, where the diggers are dug in while the attack is made upon the Hinderberg Line.

Therefore a gun pit in most useful when the lead is flying around, much like the gun shield which didn't get added until the late 1800's when rifle fire and scrapnel was taking it toll of the gunners.

John

 

[Isandlwana]

Thanks for the responses. The photos were superb.

It does seem then that such a diorama would not be a true depiction, I know for some, and I include myself, the intention is to build something that reflects the conflict as accurately as one can.

I am still unclear as to the thought processes behind the original 1916 figures that came out prior to this new Somme range. Was the first range a "feeler" range, a "toe in the water"? Because, as we have seen on here some have had to repaint the initial range to marry with the new. They don't compliment each other at all well otherwise.

 

[WBritain]

As I understand it the "missing" WW1 numbers will feature an aid station/post with trench segment add on. This will involve a piece of trench being added on to the back of artillery piece 23021 and gun emplacement piece 51009 so it will be like a reserve trench in effect.

I'm fairly new to the history of WW1 and have mainly concentrated on the eastern campaigns. My question is this - was the artillery ever placed in the front line during the Somme? The new WW1 trench pieces are designed to incorporate the earlier artillery piece but is such a diorama historically accurate or is it artistic licence? I can't find any evidence of 18 pounders being in or near the front line.

Isandlwana -
Those without wives can commandeer the dining room table (heck - propbably the entire dinding room!), building an accurate trench system in depth, sadly those of us with another half to keep happy must be content with a vastly condensed one, and yes, one that must take some artistic liecense lest we find ourselves in divorce court and without not only said dining room but most likely our cherished collections as well! So, for the brave and/or wifeless, build a string of battery trenches at the Server, Regimental aid post near the China cabinet and a front line at the head of the table - I truly would love to see it! Pass the salt please...

Richard

 

[Isandlwana]

Isandlwana -
Those without wives can commandeer the dining room table (heck - propbably the entire dinding room!), building an accurate trench system in depth, sadly those of us with another half to keep happy must be content with a vastly condensed one, and yes, one that must take some artistic liecense lest we find ourselves in divorce court and without not only said dining room but most likely our cherished collections as well! So, for the brave and/or wifeless, build a string of battery trenches at the Server, Regimental aid post near the China cabinet and a front line at the head of the table - I truly would love to see it! Pass the salt please...

Richard

Hi Richard

Thanks again for the response. I think that's why I kept harping on about the ANZACS at Gallipoli. The Nek was a very confined space - 30 yards across at its narrowest and at Lone Pine 160 yards. My dining table could cope with that and have room for the mint sauce on a Sunday!

We really do need a "Goodbye, cobber. God bless you" range. I'd even write the Standard piece for you!

 

[WBritain]

Hi Richard

Thanks again for the response. I think that's why I kept harping on about the ANZACS at Gallipoli. The Nek was a very confined space - 30 yards across at its narrowest and at Lone Pine 160 yards. My dining table could cope with that and have room for the mint sauce on a Sunday!

We really do need a "Goodbye, cobber. God bless you" range. I'd even write the Standard piece for you!

You always have an ulterior motive - darn you! Cornered again!

 

[Isandlwana]

A couple of images of dioramas one in much smaller scale depicting The Nek. The other looks a bit like the one that WB shelved of Lone Pine back in the day. Perchance to dream!