Spanish Civil War (1 Viewer)

[lalo]

... A group of Republican soldiers in the rear of the front lines.
Soldiers of scale 1 / 32 of the brands: Airfix, Machtbox, Atlantic, Britains and Bruver.
WWII German Figures, custom Spanish Army soldiers of the Republic. (Year 1936) (Dioramas taken from my website.)
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------------------------------------------------ Sincerely ... Jorge.

 

[Scott]

It is difficult for ME to tell. Are they the Nationalists (Franco) or the Republicans?

REALLY NICE website! I like your Wild West figures.

 

[Spanish soldier]

I like the diorama of soldiers republicans with their flag of three colors

 

[Scott]

In Spain today who are the "good guys" from that Civil War?

 

[jazzeum]

Scott,

The Nationalist were the Franco forces, the rebels who sought (and did) overthrow a popularly elected government.

The Republicans was the Government.

Today, the Republicans are the "good guys" and were alway the good guys from my perspective. Franco was nominally allied with Hitler and it was lucky for the British that he did not actively help them in the Mediterranean. Franco was aided by the German and Italians during the Civil War while the French, British and Americans sat on their hands.

The one country that did come to the Republicans' aid were the Soviets but they subverted the government for their own aims and shortly before the war ended stole all the Spanish gold bullion. I'm not sure if they ever returned it. The International Brigades did come to the aid of the Republicans although they eventually left (1938, possibly). The Italians were incompetent as a fighting force (a precursor to the Desert War) and the Republicans thrashed them at the Battle of Guadalajar. I have some bullets and shrapnel from the battlefield.

Franco did liberalize things a very tiny bit in the 1960s and had named as his successor Juan Carlos, grandson of the last king of Spain, Alfonso XIII (bypassing Juan Carlos' son, the Duke of Barcelona, since Franco didn't like his politics). However, Franco intended to control Juan Carlos through his right hand man, Admiral Carrero Blanco. However, the ETA (the Basque separatist organization that is still active) shortcircuited this plan by assassinating Carrero Blanco in 1973, coincidentally the day I arrived back in Spain for winter vacation. This may have been the best thing to happen to Spain as it allowed Juan Carlos to emerge. Everyone thought he was captive to Franco but when he took over he was his own man and beholden to no one and is a much respected figure as the King of Spain. He exerts a lot of moral authority.

The Spanish Civil War is a fascinating subject and there are a lot of books out there although I haven't read about it in years. The first book I read on the subject, which may still be out there is Hugh Thomas' The Spanish Civil War, although I don't believe it's held in high regard today. Antony Beevor has also written a book about the war.

I'm interested in the War becuase I lived in Barcelona and Madrid. Fascinating country. Now, you can probably understand why I root for Spain in football.

VIVA ESPANA!

 

[jazzeum]

Another fascinating book, which appears to be out of print but is available used on Amazon is Ronald Fraser's An Oral History of the Spanish War. Must read in my view, if you're interested in the topic.

Also check out George Orwell's Homage to Catalonia.

Gerald Brennan's The Spanish Labyrinth is also quite fascinating.

There is also Hemingway's For Whom the Bell Tolls and he also did a collection of short stories about the subject.

 

[Scott]

I do remember that running joke in the 70s on Saturday Night Live about Generalissimo Francisco Franco being "still dead."


Thanks for the information and book references.

I was curious who the Spanish think were the "Good Guys". For example I was in Mexico and heard from a shop owner about who should have won the 1910-1920 Revolution. Even in Bermuda, a local set me straight about an "uprising" in the early 70s that British troops were called in for.

In our Civil War there's a gentleman's agreement about the bravery and nobility of the guys that "lost" that I strongly agree with. I wonder if that the feeling in Spain.


When you see For Whom the Bells Tolls, Pans Labyrinth, Snows of Kilimanjaro or know that Rick in Casablanca ran guns to the Republicans, you get the idea of the movie term "good guys" in regards to the Spanish Civil War. As I joked with one of the Australians, some Americans get their history only from movies.


The forces in Spain seemed to have such a mix of uniforms and gear so that I couldn't tell from the miniature photos which side they were on. I have seen photos of a couple of Spanish Civil War reenactment groups that use mixed WWI and civilian stuff.

 

[jazzeum]

The Civil War was quite divisive as most are, maybe more so. If you asked me which was worse, ours or the Spanish Civil War, that would be difficult to say.

The atrocities on both in the Spanish Civil War were terrible and thousands upon thousands fled the country into France and Latin America after the Civil War. As an aside, in the 1970s, when I came back on vacation, a family friend who had done business with my father invited me to visit in Barcelona (my parents were now living in Madrid). As his children, who were my age, were sometimes busy (school, jobs, etc.), Mr. Ribas and I had plenty of time to talk as he knew I was interested in the Spanish Civil War. Mr. Ribas was conservative and very Catholic and had been a teenager in Barcelona during the war. Barcelona was under the control of the leftists, particularly the Anarcho-Syndicalists and if you were conservative, you had to be careful or you could wind up dead. He told me that he witnessed leftists going to the church yard, digging up corpses and shooting them. He said the enmity, the division between the classes was that bad and he hoped he would never see anything like that again. It was horrific.

However, as things got a little better in the late 60s some came back. When I was in high school in Barcelona in the late 60s, two of my best friends, later girlfriends (that's another story), were Maria and Teresa PiSunyer, whose family moved to Mexico in 1939 but had decided to return.

I think if you asked most Spaniards, especially the younger generation, they will see the Republicans as the good guys.

I would be hard pressed to see the Franco side (who represented reaction, the Church, the military and the moneyed interests) as good guys. All the groups aligned with the right wanted to keep the workers the peasants and the liberals down and not allowe them to taste some freedom. The right felt threatened by the left and there was not too much accomodation, electoral politics was brutal and divisive and it didn't much to get the conflagration going. The match was the murder by the leftists of Calvo Sotelo, a rightist deputy. They took him for a "paseo" (a drive) and the rightists decided they had to take matters into their own hands, resulting in a large part of the military starting the rebellion on July 18, with Franco as its leader.

 

[Spanish soldier]

I am glad that you've lived in Spain, you speak spanish?
U.S. first lady is these days on vacation in Spain when she was very well received by the spanish people.

Francisco

 

[jazzeum]

Francisco,

Yes, I am fluent in Spanish, not as good as I'd like to be, but pretty good.

I lived in Barcelona between 1965 and 1967 and my parents lived in Madrid between 1969 and 1976 and I used to go home often.

I haven't been to Spain since 1989 but we hope to go there next summer.

 

[damian]

The Civil War was quite divisive as most are, maybe more so. If you asked me which was worse, ours or the Spanish Civil War, that would be difficult to say.

The atrocities on both in the Spanish Civil War were terrible and thousands upon thousands fled the country into France and Latin America after the Civil War. As an aside, in the 1970s, when I came back on vacation, a family friend who had done business with my father invited me to visit in Barcelona (my parents were now living in Madrid). As his children, who were my age, were sometimes busy (school, jobs, etc.), Mr. Ribas and I had plenty of time to talk as he knew I was interested in the Spanish Civil War. Mr. Ribas was conservative and very Catholic and had been a teenager in Barcelona during the war. Barcelona was under the control of the leftists, particularly the Anarcho-Syndicalists and if you were conservative, you had to be careful or you could wind up dead. He told me that he witnessed leftists going to the church yard, digging up corpses and shooting them. He said the enmity, the division between the classes was that bad and he hoped he would never see anything like that again. It was horrific.

However, as things got a little better in the late 60s some came back. When I was in high school in Barcelona in the late 60s, two of my best friends, later girlfriends (that's another story), were Maria and Teresa PiSunyer, whose family moved to Mexico in 1939 but had decided to return.

I think if you asked most Spaniards, especially the younger generation, they will see the Republicans as the good guys.

I would be hard pressed to see the Franco side (who represented reaction, the Church, the military and the moneyed interests) as good guys. All the groups aligned with the right wanted to keep the workers the peasants and the liberals down and not allowe them to taste some freedom. The right felt threatened by the left and there was not too much accomodation, electoral politics was brutal and divisive and it didn't much to get the conflagration going. The match was the murder by the leftists of Calvo Sotelo, a rightist deputy. They took him for a "paseo" (a drive) and the rightists decided they had to take matters into their own hands, resulting in a large part of the military starting the rebellion on July 18, with Franco as its leader.

Well the American volunteers formed the Lincoln Battalion.
A lot of them fell foul of Senator McCarthy later on.

 

[Spanish soldier]

Francisco,

Yes, I am fluent in Spanish, not as good as I'd like to be, but pretty good.

I lived in Barcelona between 1965 and 1967 and my parents lived in Madrid between 1969 and 1976 and I used to go home often.

I haven't been to Spain since 1989 but we hope to go there next summer.

I'm glad you speak spanish in this forum there is very little spanish and my english is really bad, I frequently use online translator who is also bad.

 

[jazzeum]

A mi, su Ingles parece muy bien. At work, I sometimes have to read leases in both Spanish and Portuguese and occasionally have to use online translator. The Google one is the best I think. It is not the best but it helps a little bit.

 

[lalo]

... The appearance of the flag of the Second Republic with respect to the previous traditional flag changed color and distribution of the bands. And it was supported by a government official and Republican.
The purple color comes from an old tradition and is for Spain, the color of the Liberals.
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http://zurri1.ucoz.com/rm3.jpg
------------------------------------------------ Sincerely ... Jorge.

 

[lancer]

Great thread and very informative. The only reading I have done in the last several years on the SCW revolves around the Condor Legion and the air war. I did read most of the Hugh Thomas book some 35+ years ago but must say I haven't retained much of it. I found the SCW to be interesting but confusing as many civil wars tend to be. I have seen and enjoyed the afore mentioned movies but just for entertainment value, not history. All in all an interesting subject that is waiting to be learned. -- Al

 

[jazzeum]

Al,

Hugh Thomas updated his book a few years ago. The book has enjoyed a certain notoriety because it first came out in 1961 and wasn't allowed in Spain. Copies were, however, smuggled in and passed around. I read it in Spain back in the late 60s after my father had read it.

I'm reading the Beevor back now and recommend it. When it came out it was first published in Spain and was the best selling book for 12 weeks.

One book I really like is Ronald Frazier's Blood of Spain, as I mentioned earlier on this thread. Really great book.

 

[lancer]

Al,

Hugh Thomas updated his book a few years ago. The book has enjoyed a certain notoriety because it first came out in 1961 and wasn't allowed in Spain. Copies were, however, smuggled in and passed around. I read it in Spain back in the late 60s after my father had read it.

I'm reading the Beevor back now and recommend it. When it came out it was first published in Spain and was the best selling book for 12 weeks.

One book I really like is Ronald Frazier's Blood of Spain, as I mentioned earlier on this thread. Really great book.

Thanks for the info, Brad. Will take a look at the Beevor and Frazier books. -- Al

 

[jazzeum]

Al,

I misspelled Frazier's name, it's acutally Fraser.

BTW, this is what the flag was under the Republic, 1931-1939.

 

[lalo]

... Read story, from competent sources, not bad. But sometimes the story told by the winners. And that may be defective. Therefore, collating reports of the winners and losers of wars is the work of the good historian.
The Lancer teammate, I understand you have seen film of Spanish Civil War. And I'm going to refer to the commercial cinema of the Spanish Civil War.
How to make a film about this issue is novel and if the Spanish do very own, it is interesting that are not Spanish, Spanish mediente know the feeling a movie that turns out to be novel.
BERLANGA Spanish director, led a famous movie called "The Heifer" " LA VAQUILLA " . I say as a statement which Verlanga in his youth, was enrrolado as a soldier in the "Blue Division" .. but not because it was fascist. But because his father was in jail because he was a Communist. And lest they be shot the father, the son, enrolled at the Blue Division.
(The things of a country such as Spain subrrealísta.) Well, this director made the movie ... "The heifer." " LA VAQUILLA " . I recommend you to see this tragic - Spanish comedy. Great film of the decade of the 80s of Spanish cinema.
LA VAQUILLA (Luis García Berlanga, 1985)
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http://espectadores.net/la-vaquilla-de-berlanga/
------------------------------------------------------ Jorge.

 

[jazzeum]

Jorge,

Do you have any other recommendations?

Saludos,