Victoria's Little Wars: Best/Favorite Commanders (1 Viewer)

[swalterh]

Seeing is how we have been having great success at sparking a continuous debate about numerous aspects of the Civil War, I thought I’d try to get a similar conversation going pertaining to a different subject matter that might be more interesting to some of our British and Commonwealth friends.

My proposed line for discussion will be Best/Favorite Commanders of the Victorian Era. Please feel free to broaden the perspective to any and all topics related to Queen Vicky’s Little Wars. I’m merely focusing the title of the thread on the major personality figures to get the ball rolling. Hopefully this will ignite further discussion on the various campaigns of the era.

Shane

 

[Jack]

Seeing is how we have been having great success at sparking a continuous debate about numerous aspects of the Civil War, I thought I’d try to get a similar conversation going pertaining to a different subject matter that might be more interesting to some of our British and Commonwealth friends.

My proposed line for discussion will be Best/Favorite Commanders of the Victorian Era. Please feel free to broaden the perspective to any and all topics related to Queen Vicky’s Little Wars. I’m merely focusing the title of the thread on the major personality figures to get the ball rolling. Hopefully this will ignite further discussion on the various campaigns of the era.

Shane

Chard and Bromhead at Rorke's Drift, not just for the VCs, the movie, the toy soldiers, but because it goes to show in some instances its not about being the best and brightest - sometimes its about just having the guts to hold your ground.

 

[glossman]

Chard and Bromhead at Rorke's Drift, not just for the VCs, the movie, the toy soldiers, but because it goes to show in some instances its not about being the best and brightest - sometimes its about just having the guts to hold your ground.

I agree with you about "just having the guts to hold your ground".

Please allow me to add Colour Sergeant Frank Bourne, DCM. I think he deserved a VC as much as Lts. Chard and Bromhead. It takes a good NCO to execute officers' commands and get things done under fire. As a matter of interest, he was the longest surviving member of the Rorke's Drift garrison. He died on VE Day 8th August 1945 aged 91 years old.

Raymond.

 

[Jack]

I agree with you about "just having the guts to hold your ground".

Please allow me to add Colour Sergeant Frank Bourne, DCM. I think he deserved a VC as much as Lts. Chard and Bromhead. It takes a good NCO to execute officers' commands and get things done under fire. As a matter of interest, he was the longest surviving member of the Rorke's Drift garrison. He died on VE Day 8th August 1945 aged 91 years old.

Raymond.

Am I remembering correctly in saying that he knocked back a VC and took a promotion instead?

I hope this thread is as good as that Civil War thread. I cannot post in it because I am almost completely ignorant of the period.

 

[swalterh]

Of all the illustrious individuals to command the indomitable red coats of the “Queen’s” army during the years 1837-1901, my favorite and IMHO best commander was Sir Garnet Wolseley. Wolseley was one of the first true intellectually inclined professional soldiers in HMS. He was an avid military writer and theorist. He gained a reputation for meticulous planning and possessed unusually high expectations of his subordinates. He served in just about every major hot spot in the Empire. Initially unpopular with the royal family, due in large part to his constant scuffles with the Duke of Cambridge, he was considered by some to be Britain’s “only General.”

As a junior officer during the Crimean War he almost always found a way to get involved in the action and distinguished himself for bravery in the Indian Mutiny. Sir Garnet’s Egyptian Campaign of 1882 is one of my favorite and IMO best executed military operations of Victoria’s Little Wars. All of this culminated in him succeeding the Duke of Cambridge as Commander-in-Chief. A remarkable career for a remarkable soldier.

 

[swalterh]

I agree with you about "just having the guts to hold your ground".

Please allow me to add Colour Sergeant Frank Bourne, DCM. I think he deserved a VC as much as Lts. Chard and Bromhead. It takes a good NCO to execute officers' commands and get things done under fire. As a matter of interest, he was the longest surviving member of the Rorke's Drift garrison. He died on VE Day 8th August 1945 aged 91 years old.

Raymond.

During the Victorian era, the British enlisted man was the most highly disciplined and professionally inclined soldier in the world. The movie Zulu presents an unparalleled portrayal of the attitude and inner workings of the British army. CS Bourne is the full embodiment of the British non-com, who as you said “got things done under fire.” One might even go so far as to say that it was these individuals who made many-a less than qualified junior officer look good.

 

[swalterh]

Chard and Bromhead at Rorke's Drift, not just for the VCs, the movie, the toy soldiers, but because it goes to show in some instances its not about being the best and brightest - sometimes its about just having the guts to hold your ground.

It’s a shame how these two officers were treated by the army bureaucracy after their deeds of valour for their heroic stand at Rorke’s Drift had been so nobly appreciated by the British public.

 

[Jack]

Of all the illustrious individuals to command the indomitable red coats of the “Queen’s” army during the years 1837-1901, my favorite and IMHO best commander was Sir Garnet Wolseley. Wolseley was one of the first true intellectually inclined professional soldiers in HMS. He was an avid military writer and theorist. He gained a reputation for meticulous planning and possessed unusually high expectations of his subordinates. He served in just about every major hot spot in the Empire. Initially unpopular with the royal family, due in large part to his constant scuffles with the Duke of Cambridge, he was considered by some to be Britain’s “only General.”

As a junior officer during the Crimean War he almost always found a way to get involved in the action and distinguished himself for bravery in the Indian Mutiny. Sir Garnet’s Egyptian Campaign of 1882 is one of my favorite and IMO best executed military operations of Victoria’s Little Wars. All of this culminated in him succeeding the Duke of Cambridge as Commander-in-Chief. A remarkable career for a remarkable soldier.

I believe as well that he gave two phrases/ideas to the language - 'everything is all Sir Garnet' meaning everything is OK and he was the inspiration for the figure from the Gilbert and Sullivan opera.

This is much better than the Civil War thread - Jack can play!

 

[marco55]

I've always been drawn to this period and read many books on it.Besides Wolseley I liked Buller,Roberts,Evelyn Wood,Kitchner,Burnaby,MacDonald,Stewart,the list goes on and on.Many WWI Generals were junior officers during this period.Smith-Dorrien was one of the few officers that survived Iswandlana.It's amazing how many campaigns these guy were in and survived.
Mark

 

[glossman]

Am I remembering correctly in saying that he knocked back a VC and took a promotion instead?

I hope this thread is as good as that Civil War thread. I cannot post in it because I am almost completely ignorant of the period.

That was what I thought too....that he declined to accept the VC, but opted for a commission with better salary and benefits.

However, I read the transcript of the radio broadcast by Lieutenant-Colonel Frank Bourne, OBE, DCM published in the Listener, dated 30th December 1936. Here is the relevant paragraph in his own words in which he says he declined the commission:

"Lieutenants Chard and Bromhead and the men received the thanks of Parliament, the Officers being promoted to the rank of Major. I was awarded the Distinguished Conduct Medal with an annuity of £10 - the same awarded to the Victoria Cross - and awarded a Commission, but as I was the youngest of eight sons, and the family exchequer was empty, I had to refuse it that time."

After Rorke's Drift, Bourne served in India and Burma and was promoted to Quartermaster-Sergeant in 1884. He received his commission in 1890 as a Quartermaster, eleven years after the Rorke's Drift action.

Raymond.

 

[swalterh]

I've always been drawn to this period and read many books on it.Besides Wolseley I liked Buller,Roberts,Evelyn Wood,Kitchner,Burnaby,MacDonald,Stewart,the list goes on and on.Many WWI Generals were junior officers during this period.Smith-Dorrien was one of the few officers that survived Iswandlana.It's amazing how many campaigns these guy were in and survived.
Mark

I would say that one of the best overviews of the conflicts that occurred during the period is Byron Farwell’s “Queen Victoria’s Little Wars.” His book “Eminent Victorians” is an excellent biographical source for the leading military personalities of the period.

 

[Jack]

I would say that one of the best overviews of the conflicts that occurred during the period is Byron Farwell’s “Queen Victoria’s Little Wars.” His book “Eminent Victorians” is an excellent biographical source for the leading military personalities of the period.

Not to be confused with a book I am actually reading this weekend - Eminent Victorians by Lytton Strachey, who is widely considered to be the father of modern biography. I have Farwell's book on the shelf as well - a rocking good read. Great title too!

 

[Jack]

I've always been drawn to this period and read many books on it.Besides Wolseley I liked Buller,Roberts,Evelyn Wood,Kitchner,Burnaby,MacDonald,Stewart,the list goes on and on.Many WWI Generals were junior officers during this period.Smith-Dorrien was one of the few officers that survived Iswandlana.It's amazing how many campaigns these guy were in and survived.
Mark

Is there an equivalent period in the history of any country that saw the restless energy and ambition of a section of society so forcibly expressed in the actions of such great characters - adventurers, administrators, soldiers, missionaries and assorted ratbags.

 

[swalterh]

Chard and Bromhead at Rorke's Drift, not just for the VCs, the movie, the toy soldiers, but because it goes to show in some instances its not about being the best and brightest - sometimes its about just having the guts to hold your ground.

So what opinions are out there about Lord Chelmsford, commander of British forces in the Zulu War 1879? Good, bad, unlucky? He kind of left the elements of the 24th Foot at Islandlwana in a bit of a bad spot. Lucky for him the rest of the 2nd Warwickshires at Rorke’s Drift were up to the task thanks in large part to some help from an officer of engineers. The folks back at home probably wouldn't have been too happy with two successive massacres in a matter of weeks.

 

[swalterh]

Is there an equivalent period in the history of any country that saw the restless energy and ambition of a section of society so forcibly expressed in the actions of such great characters - adventurers, administrators, soldiers, missionaries and assorted ratbags.

Not a chance, and unfortunately they all were of a bygone breed never to be seen again. I think there's a certain romanticism about the whole period that makes it so appealing. For Duty, Queen and Country. Oh, and of course the glory of the regiment and the chap standing next to you. We haven't even started discussing the army in India or Northwest frontier.

 

[Jack]

Not a chance, and unfortunately they all were of a bygone breed never to be seen again. I think there's a certain romanticism about the whole period that makes it so appealing. For Duty, Queen and Country. Oh, and of course the glory of the regiment and the chap standing next to you. We haven't even started discussing the army in India or Northwest frontier.

I suspect that the Zulus and assorted peoples of the Empire are probably less romantic about the period, but it does go to show the dangers of a system that is not open to rewarding talent. Think of the drain on the human treasure of the UK that so much talent, ambition, and drive was exported. We often see WW 1 has a 'lost' generation but the Empie builders made the Empire great but it must have had a hidden cost to the quality of innovation and development at home.

 

[swalterh]

I suspect that the Zulus and assorted peoples of the Empire are probably less romantic about the period, but it does go to show the dangers of a system that is not open to rewarding talent. Think of the drain on the human treasure of the UK that so much talent, ambition, and drive was exported. We often see WW 1 has a 'lost' generation but the Empie builders made the Empire great but it must have had a hidden cost to the quality of innovation and development at home.

Jack,

You make some excellent points. I think you’ve really opened up a potential topic for continued discussion that focuses on the inequalities within Victorian British society that forced many of these individuals into military service with either the Queen’s army or with the army in India. Later we see British officers serving in other military establishments around the empire such as in Egypt. It’s interesting to note that many of the “Wars” were in fact concocted by military commanders in order to gain glory and earn possible rewards and privileges from the Monarchy that could improve their social station at home.

I think your point regarding how Britain treated its talent is one of the reasons why I’m drawn to Wolseley’s story. He did not come from higher station and was looked down on by the more aristocratic members of the officer corps. His rise to eventually become CNC is truly amazing especially given the nature of his relationship with the Duke of Cambridge. It’s also interesting to note that the office of CNC was stripped of much of its authority and power just prior to Wolseley assuming the post.

I would also add that Montgomery faced similar frictions and barriers while working his way up the chain of command.

 

[Jack]

Jack,

You make some excellent points. I think you’ve really opened up a potential topic for continued discussion that focuses on the inequalities within Victorian British society that forced many of these individuals into military service with either the Queen’s army or with the army in India. Later we see British officers serving in other military establishments around the empire such as in Egypt. It’s interesting to note that many of the “Wars” were in fact concocted by military commanders in order to gain glory and earn possible rewards and privileges from the Monarchy that could improve their social station at home.

I think your point regarding how Britain treated its talent is one of the reasons why I’m drawn to Wolseley’s story. He did not come from higher station and was looked down on by the more aristocratic members of the officer corps. His rise to eventually become CNC is truly amazing especially given the nature of his relationship with the Duke of Cambridge. It’s also interesting to note that the office of CNC was stripped of much of its authority and power just prior to Wolseley assuming the post.

I would also add that Montgomery faced similar frictions and barriers while working his way up the chain of command.

Have your read Corelli Barnett's The Swordbearers: Supreme Command in the First World War? Barnett looks at Moltke, Jellicoe, Pétain and Ludendorff and ties their character to their nation's performance over the course of the war. I am at a beach resort at the moment and separated from my library but he worked out how many families in England had a yearly income that would have permitted them to send their sons to the naval college in the decades prior to WW1. I will check when I return home but it was clear that the brains behind the fleet were drawn from an unbelievably narrow section of society. Barnett is a great critic of the impact of tradition on British thinking but it made compelling reading. He also made a name for himself criticising Montgomery, calling him, among other things, 'an emotional cripple'.

 

[Isandlwana]

The Zulu War does seem to swamp other campaigns of this era but Freddie 'Bobs' Roberts is one of my favourite but not necessarily best commanders of Queen Vic's reign. Wolseley was an excellent commander, logistically savvy and an excellent self-publicist to boot.

But Roberts really did see the changing face of warfare from the Mutiny to the more guerilla style conflict of the Second Boer War and therefore spanned the majority of her reign.

He even died visiting the troops during the early stages of the Great War. Great? Arguable. Legendary? Certainly.

 

[Jack]

The Zulu War does seem to swamp other campaigns of this era but Freddie 'Bobs' Roberts is one of my favourite but not necessarily best commanders of Queen Vic's reign. Wolseley was an excellent commander, logistically savvy and an excellent self-publicist to boot.

But Roberts really did see the changing face of warfare from the Mutiny to the more guerilla style conflict of the Second Boer War and therefore spanned the majority of her reign.

He even died visiting the troops during the early stages of the Great War. Great? Arguable. Legendary? Certainly.

I believe that I have a clear memory of visiting his son's grave in South Africa - Colenso?