White French Flags and Quebec Flags!!! (1 Viewer)

[Fraxinus]

Good Morning,

Until late in the 18th Century, French Infantry Regiments utilized a pure white flag (often a white cross on a white background) as the personal emblem of the Colonel of the Regiment. These white flags would have been with the first company, 1st battalion of each regiment - back in France. The battalions sent to Quebec were the 2nd Battalions of each regiment or the 2nd and 3rd Battalions in the case of Regiment Berry - commanded by a Lt. Colonel. As such, I do not think the "white" french flags would not have made it to Canada.

However, I believe that each french battalion would have at least 2 of the same regimental flags, one for each end of the battalion formation. Prior to 1758 or so, I believe the french may have carried at least 3 regimental flags --- one for the center position.

Now, where I am lost is with JJD's La Sarre flag. It was not match the flag depicted in the Osprey Publication, page 75. But John's flag does match up with the flag depicted at the very bottom of this link ..... http://regimentlasarre.tripod.com/index.html

More information on French Flags http://flagspot.net/flags/fr^r_mon.html

Another French Flag Page http://tmg110.tripod.com/royfr2.htm

 

[lamiral]

Hi ,
You are right , the white flag or ' drapeau colonelle" (in french ,"colonelle" is a female adjective for the company colonelle ), this is the first of the first batallion
and there are none in Canada for the regular regiments
Nevertheless a person who represents the king should have had a white flag.
I think Moncalm had one for this aim.
By royal rules of the 18 th february of 1749 , french batallions have two flags called " drapeaux d'ordonnance". these flags were generaly with a great white cross and four colored squares.
And I think the Jenkins for the Sarre regiment is the good one
In battlefield , french ordonnance flags were placed in the center of the battallion lines with the fusiliers.

 

[lancer]

On 6-30-08 I started a thread call "La Sarre Flag Colors" which asked about the correct colors for the flag. black over red or red over black as attached at the staff. The evidence provided and the resulting discussion seemed to indicate that either version was correct. Many pictures exsist of the flag both ways. -- lancer

 

[Combat]

If you look at the cover of the Osprey book "Ticonderoga 1758" you will see a white French flag: http://www.ospreypublishing.com/store/large_image.aspx?ID=219

 

[lamiral]

Hi guys,
First , correct my mistake :the compagnie colonelle is the second of the first batallion.
Secondly , some sites in french
a very good one with the Mouillard plates :
Pfef.free.fr
The site of Nec Pluribus Impar -) vial.jean.free.fr

 

[Fraxinus]

Thanks, lamiral and Combat, we can credit any white flag to Montcalm.

http://digitalgallery.nypl.org/nypl...abel=&lword=&lfield=&imgs=20&pos=59&snum=&e=w

or better place in the index

http://digitalgallery.nypl.org/nypl...&f=&k=0&sScope=&sLevel=&sLabel=&imgs=20&pNum=

 

[theBaron]

On 6-30-08 I started a thread call "La Sarre Flag Colors" which asked about the correct colors for the flag. black over red or red over black as attached at the staff. The evidence provided and the resulting discussion seemed to indicate that either version was correct. Many pictures exsist of the flag both ways. -- lancer

I remembered that discussion, here's the link:

http://www.treefrogtreasures.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8914&highlight=la+sarre

In re-reading the discussion, I don't think we ever did settle it, conclusively. There was the question of whether any given illustration was showing the obverse side (staff at the viewer's left) or the reverse side.

I can't imagine that both versions existed at the same time, but I can see that the colors were retained while their layout was changed from one time period to another.

I'd like to add my endorsement to L'amiral's, for Jean Vial's site, Nec Pluribus Impar. If you've never visited it before, it's worth it. The time period focus is a little earlier than the Seven Years War, but its content does include that period. He has very good diagrams of uniforms of the major combattants, and extensive articles on the French royal army. I think, though, that M. Vial doesn't add new content as frequently as he did in the past. He used to update the site monthly, then went into hiatus for over a year--I think from the end of 2006 to the beginning of 2008, roughly--then brought it back with bimonthly updates. But there doesn't seem to be any new content since I last checked.

Regarding La Sarre, by the way, Vial's article shows the drapeau d'ordonnance in the traditional format, on the fly with the staff on the left, with quarters as follows: 1 (upper left)-red, 2 (upper right)-black, 3 (lower left)-black, 4 (lower right)-red.

Prost!
Brad

 

[lancer]

I remembered that discussion, here's the link:

http://www.treefrogtreasures.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8914&highlight=la+sarre

In re-reading the discussion, I don't think we ever did settle it, conclusively. There was the question of whether any given illustration was showing the obverse side (staff at the viewer's left) or the reverse side.

I can't imagine that both versions existed at the same time, but I can see that the colors were retained while their layout was changed from one time period to another.

Prost!
Brad

Good point, Brad. It is a puzzle. Logic would seem to dictate that one or the other is correct, but not both at the same time. -- Al

 

[Fraxinus]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KsSjH9KjZc0

Here is a link to a You tube video of the La Sarre reenactment group. The video is in French, but they carry a regimental flag that is a pattern match for John's flag. It is depicted in the very first frames of the video.

Seems John got it right.

 

[lancer]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KsSjH9KjZc0

Here is a link to a You tube video of the La Sarre reenactment group. The video is in French, but they carry a regimental flag that is a pattern match for John's flag. It is depicted in the very first frames of the video.

Seems John got it right.

I just watched the above video. The flags depicted in the video are the exact opposite of the JJD depiction of the La Sarre flag. JJD's flag is black over red at the staff while every dipiction of the La Sarre flag in the video is red over black at the staff. This just does not solve the mystery. -- lancer

 

[theBaron]

I think the weight of evidence is against John, unfortunately.

I can't recall if he visits the forum, but maybe we can contact him, and ask him about it. I'd be curious to know his reference or source.

If it is an error, it's just one of those things. Remember the flap about the Britain's Grand Union, that had the red St. Patrick's saltire included on a flag years before it was actually added?

Prost!
Brad

PS-Nice YouTube clip! And it's nice of the re-enactors to give a cheer for Leroy at the end, he must be very flattered

 

[Fraxinus]

http://digitalgallery.nypl.org/nypl...abel=&lword=&lfield=&imgs=20&pos=59&snum=&e=w

This link maybe John's Source, black over red at the staff

 

[lancer]

http://digitalgallery.nypl.org/nypl...abel=&lword=&lfield=&imgs=20&pos=59&snum=&e=w

This link maybe John's Source, black over red at the staff

Once again, proof to support either version. So back to the start, which is correct? They are probably both correct, but why, and what determines which hanging is used? -- lancer

 

[marco55]

You guys are going to drive yourself crazy on this.
Mark

 

[aujj65]

I don't know if this site is any good info for this discussion? It has a few plates with flags.

http://digitalgallery.nypl.org/nypldigital/dgtitle_tree.cfm?title_id=614958&level=2&tword=

Jeff

 

[lancer]

I don't know if this site is any good info for this discussion? It has a few plates with flags.

http://digitalgallery.nypl.org/nypldigital/dgtitle_tree.cfm?title_id=614958&level=2&tword=

Jeff

Thanks, Jeff. This is a great uniform ref. site. Thanks for posting. -- Al

 

[aujj65]

Thanks, Jeff. This is a great uniform ref. site. Thanks for posting. -- Al

That's all right Al, but I can’t take the honours for this – Michel (Mardasson) posted this site on my Alma painting thread a while ago.

Jeff

 

[lancer]

That's all right Al, but I can’t take the honours for this – Michel (Mardasson) posted this site on my Alma painting thread a while ago.

Jeff

Well, thanks to both of you, then. -- Al