WS134 Panzer III for the Ardennes? (1 Viewer)

[Beaufighter]

Cheers Forum Squadron Members:

I would love to hear from our resident German AFV experts in respect to using the K&C WS134 Panzer II for my Ardennes diorama. I know that the 103rd Panzer Battalion utilized one as a Command Tank; the 115th Battalion also had one under the same capacity. Would the K&C Panzer III and its given paint scheme be appropriate or is it way too much of a stretch; or quite simply does it have the wrong armament for late 44'-early 45'? Many thanks in advance for any research or thoughts on this late night self inflicted Toy Soldier historical dilemma. All the same, I am having fun with the research process!

Hang Tough,
Marc

 

[forlornhoper]

Marc,i think it very unlikely that WS134 as K&C have made it ,would be in active combat service anywhere in 44/45,some were used to limited effect in Arnhem /Oosterbeek but those panzer III's were fitted with Schurzen and would need heavy infantry support to have any chance of survival.Panzer III's swansong was Kursk after that it was viewed as a limited combat asset,the chassis was being used more for Stug III's,which was considered to have more tactical clout than the Panzer III.All that said it would not surprise me if there is a late war photo of a Panzer III serving in some role ,in some theatre in Europe,when armour resourses were desparate. Hope this helps some , Ken

 

[CollectionFigurine]

Marc,i think it very unlikely that WS134 as K&C have made it ,would be in active combat service anywhere in 44/45,some were used to limited effect in Arnhem /Oosterbeek but those panzer III's were fitted with Schurzen and would need heavy infantry support to have any chance of survival.Panzer III's swansong was Kursk after that it was viewed as a limited combat asset,the chassis was being used more for Stug III's,which was considered to have more tactical clout than the Panzer III.All that said it would not surprise me if there is a late war photo of a Panzer III serving in some role ,in some theatre in Europe,when armour resourses were desparate. Hope this helps some , Ken

Thank you for this information, I learned something today yet

 

[fmethorst]

Here are the German armored units (excluding Assault Gun and Anti-tank). I've added Pz.III inventory where I have the information.

 

[graycap]

Actually some of the PzKw IIIs deployed in Arnhem did not have Schurzen - they came from training establishments in Germany and were hastly formed up as part of Kampfgruppe Knaust - for photograpahic evidence see After the Battles's 2 volume illustrated history of MARKET GARDEN, the Concord book on German armour in Arnhem and Ian Kershaw's It Never Snows in September an acount of Arnhem from primarily German sources. So the K & C Mk III could be used as it stands quite happily in Arnhem dioramas - I think one was used in one of the recent K & C displays at a US show recently.

 

[forlornhoper]

Sorry marc,Graycap is correct,there were some Panzer III's at Arnhem /Oosterbeek without schurzen,how many exactly and what their chassis Nos were and who crewed them i dont know,perhaps Graycap knows ?.the point i was trying to make was there would not be Panzer III's in abundance in late 44/45 and it would be unlikely that WS134 would be in the Ardennes,which if i recall was Marc's original question. Ken

 

[fmethorst]

Actually some of the PzKw IIIs deployed in Arnhem did not have Schurzen - they came from training establishments in Germany and were hastly formed up as part of Kampfgruppe Knaust - for photograpahic evidence see After the Battles's 2 volume illustrated history of MARKET GARDEN, the Concord book on German armour in Arnhem and Ian Kershaw's It Never Snows in September an acount of Arnhem from primarily German sources. So the K & C Mk III could be used as it stands quite happily in Arnhem dioramas - I think one was used in one of the recent K & C displays at a US show recently.

This website has a little info on the unit. About half way down there is a picture of a Pz.III with a 5 cm KwK 39 L/60 gun and without schurtzen on the right side of the frame. This vehicle has the additional spaced armor on the front of the mantlet but is a pretty good match to the K&C version.

http://www.defendingarnhem.com/Kampfknaust.htm

 

[graycap]

Thanks for the previous post for the direction to the Defending Arnhem website.

Revell, the webmaster is co-author of a forthcoming book Retake Arnhem Bridge; an illustrated history of KG Knaust Publishers . To quote the blurb:

"Superb new book which deals with the German side of the Battle of Arnhem. Retake Arnhem Bridge is based on the numerous photographs taken by Karl-Heinz Kracht, who in 1944 was at a tank training school in Germany but had been warned that his unit would be required to form an ad-hoc Kampfgruppe if circumstances warranted. In September 1944 after the airborne landings in Holland this is exactly what happened and he and his colleagues became part of the Kampfgruppe Knaust. Sent to Holland they had a major part in retaking Arnhem Bridge from the defenders of the 1st Airborne Division and later spent several weeks fighting on the Island - the area between Nijmegen and Arnhem. Enclosed with each book is a full colour reprint of 'Sonderausgabe Nr 3, stand 1940; 40 West, Arnhem map (52 x 40 cm) as produced by the German Army Headquarters. A fantastic book packed with rare photos plus text of the units actions. 168pp. 238 photos. 11 maps and 25 documents. Limited English edition. Price: £34.95."

Karl-Heinz Kracht was a crew member on a PZKw III who took quite a few photos of his tank (some of which have already appeared in After The Battle volumes and It Never Snows in September) and others during the battle for Arnhem. After the bridge was retaken from Frost's paras Kracht's unit crossed the river to defend Elst from XXX Corps breaking our of the Niemegan bridgehead. At least one Mk III was knocked out there.

If you are really interested in German armor at Arnhem this would seem an excellent book to get.
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[Guy]

Panzer III in the Ardennes ( you mean the Battle of the Bulge ?) I am a bit confused because a few people talk about Arnhem.
I know a lot about the Battle of the Bulge , being a belgian it is one of my favorite subjets.
There were only a few Panzer III's around during the battle, used as Panzerbefehlswagen(command tank) These Panzers were equipped with heavier armor,a dummy gun and long-range radios. Most of them were fitted with an AA machine gun mounted on the commander's cupola.The ausfuring N Panzer III's were also covered in Zimmerit, the anti magnetic paste.Mid 1944 most Panzer III's (including ausf E,F,G)were converted into recovery vehicles, artillery tractors or ammunition carriers.
For the Battle of the Bulge Hitler had assembled the best tanks at that time available in the German Army.The main battle tanks used during the Battle of the Bulge on the German side were:
StuG's
Panther's
Tiger's and the Kingtiger and
Wirbelwinds
I hope I have been of some help
regards
Guy

 

[Beaufighter]

Panzer III in the Ardennes ( you mean the Battle of the Bulge ?) I am a bit confused because a few people talk about Arnhem.
I know a lot about the Battle of the Bulge , being a belgian it is one of my favorite subjets.
There were only a few Panzer III's around during the battle, used as Panzerbefehlswagen(command tank) These Panzers were equipped with heavier armor,a dummy gun and long-range radios. Most of them were fitted with an AA machine gun mounted on the commander's cupola.The ausfuring N Panzer III's were also covered in Zimmerit, the anti magnetic paste.Mid 1944 most Panzer III's (including ausf E,F,G)were converted into recovery vehicles, artillery tractors or ammunition carriers.
For the Battle of the Bulge Hitler had assembled the best tanks at that time available in the German Army.The main battle tanks used during the Battle of the Bulge on the German side were:
StuG's
Panther's
Tiger's and the Kingtiger and
Wirbelwinds
I hope I have been of some help
regards
Guy

Frank & Ken, many thanks for taking the time to address my question. Guy, thank you as well for adding to my knowledge base! As I thought, the K&C version is a stretch to place her in "The Bulge." Guy, I too was thrown off by the Arnhem side-track. I look forward to hearing more about the Bulge from a "local" so to speak. Perhaps you can suggest a guide or similar for when I make a trip over there to visit the various battlefields! Thanks again.
Hang Tough,
Marc

 

[Guy]

Hi
Visiting the Bulge Battlefields;
You will need at least one week to visit one sector of the battlefield .The battlefield was devided in 3 sectors : North, Center and South.
Just to wet your appetite you could visit:
-The village of La Gleize where Peiper's advance was stopped.There is a Battle of the Bulge museum and outside you can admire a King Tiger in excellent condition.
-You could visit the Malmedy Massacre memorial in Baugnez about 3 miles down the road from Malmedy, where 84 American prisoners were executed by the SS
-You could pay a visit to the "Elsenborn Ridge" where the 99th US Inf Div "the battle babies" stopped the German advance for 4 days.
-There is the Panther Tank in Houffalize and the one in Celles.
-There is the Battle of the Bulge museum in La Roche.
-There is the American war cemetry in Henri Chapelle, where corporal Richard F.Wiegand -289th infantry Regiment- is burried.He stopped single handed with his bazooka a Panther column in the little hamlet called "Trou de Loup"
-There is the "Mardasson" American war memorial and the Bastogne historical center.
-You can still see the foxholes dug by E company/506th PIR. in the " Bois Jacques ", 1/2 mile from the village of Foy;
-etc,etc ,I could go on and on and on.
Every little village in that part of the Ardennes where the battle raged has its own memorial or museum.
Try to lay your hands on the book "A tour of the Bulge Battlefield" by William C.C. Cavanagh it is an excellent guide.
Hope I have been of some help
Guy

 

[botbman]

Hello

New member

Agree need a week to see the battlefield [I have been 9 times in the last 20years, I am searching for something, more when I find it!!], things not to miss are too many, but would suggest the foxholes above Foy is one, the muesums are great, plus early evening tramping round the battlefields, particularly Skyline Drive. Roads are peceful enough and the beer is great.

No Panzer III's used there, the 1 highlight in the 9th Panzer Div brokedown prior to the battle, found out when researching at Munster tank Muesum when I was there. Think it ended up where the majority of these did, training centres for tank crew or have seen some interesting pictures of Panzer III's in Berlin at the end of the war. Cannot bring myself to put the K & C Elefant in the collection I have on the BotB diorama, they were nowhere near the battle as well.

Loved the Elefant at Aberdeen proving ground, very impressive, as is the Strumtiger at Munster in Germany. That would be a great K & C AFV.


Bit of a geek on the battle, have every book in and out of print on the battle and about 6,000 photos on my computer.