WW2 black soldiers (1 Viewer)

[Poppo]

I have noticed that toysoldier companies make pratically no black ww2 soldiers(nor black Unionists)...While in the US army many were the black ones...The only blacks are the Zulus! Why?




PS: I think Jazzeum will appreciate this thread...{sm4}

 

[binder001]

Unfortunately the mantra from the various manufacturers is "black troops don't sell". If this really is the case then the consumers are very short sighted and narrow-minded. The US Army had black troops in the Civil War, the Spanish-American War, WW1, WW2 and every conflict thereafter. You can't properly depict the US Army or Marines in Viet Nam, the Cold War, the Gulf War or the GWOT without a high proportion of blacks as well as increasing numbers of Asians and Hispanics. Unfortunately the toy soldier collectors seem happy to ignore this fact.

Personally, I wouldn't even mind seeing conversion heads offered to allow some changing.

Gary B.

 

[jazzeum]

I have to agree with Gary. Very few manufacturers have offered African American troops. A happy notable exception lately is King & Country but generally you don't see many offerings. Ted Toy also carries black Civil War troops.

I think (but don't really definitively know) that they principally provided a support role and since most offerings tend to be combat troops, that is the reason you don't see more offerings.

I don't know the demographics of toy soldiers buyers but if you wanted to attract African Americans and other black people into the hobby, more offerings would help.

 

[Fort-Stamford]

I have noticed that toysoldier companies make pratically no black ww2 soldiers(nor black Unionists)...While in the US army many were the black ones...The only blacks are the Zulus! Why?




PS: I think Jazzeum will appreciate this thread...{sm4}

Britains produced two sets honoring the 54th Mass. Sets #17370 & 17375; and recently added a single colored infantryman marching #31086. The manufacturer "A Call To Arms" did the 54th Mass in plastic, but these needed painting by collector. Frankly, I think an add-on set to the 54th Mass would be a plus. As to WWII, there was a set honoring the Red Tails, but that was it as I recall. Not much is produced for Vietnam, since most of the fighting was virtually jungle warfare.

 

[Fort-Stamford]

Suggestions for making dioramas using the 54th; they led the assault on Fort Wagner; then performed a rear guard action to protect the retreat of the Union Army at the Battle of Olustee; fought against Confederate Militia at the Battle of Honey Hill; and finally fought and sustained their heaviest casualties at the Battle of Boykin's Mill (last battle in South Carolina). As to WWII I am a little stumped for suggestions except for the major feat of helping to build the Alaska Highway (critical for the defeat of the Japanese in the Aluetians).

 

[ucla1967]

In addition to the manufacturers already mentioned, Edmund's made a set of black ACW troops which I have in my collection and I have several sets of black ACW troops from Martin Ritchie. From personal experience, I don't believe that they sell very well. I have an eight figure boxed set of the ACW "Corps du Africa" made by Potsdamer Zinnsoldaten that I have not been able to sell at the West Coaster for at least five years.

I am hard pressed to remember seeing an African-American collector at the 21 West Coasters I have attended. I am not convinced that offering more black troops would bring them into the hobby.

Although there were several segregated black U.S. Army divisions in World War II (e.g., two in Italy), most combat forces were white. Blacks tended to serve in support units (e.g., the Red Ball Express) which are less interesting to collectors.

Even though the armed forces ended segregated units in 1948, I never served directly with an African-American or Asian, for that matter, in the three years I was on active duty in the U.S. Army from 1961 to 64, with the exception of one or two of each in my basic training company.

 

[Fort-Stamford]

Mike,

You are so correct in your assessment. Market forces (i.e. demand) is what calls the shots in this hobby. As they say in France, "Se La Vie", "That is life".

Chuck

 

[binder001]

I think (but don't really definitively know) that they principally provided a support role and since most offerings tend to be combat troops, that is the reason you don't see more offerings. QUOTE]

You are right - the Army hierarchy was quite racist at the time. They honestly believed that the Negro could not participate in modern combat effectively. Fortunately they were proven wrong when small number of blacks were palced in segregated combat arms units. In the air there was the famous 332nd Fighter Group (the "Red Tails"), plus at least one associated B25 bomber group. The Army had two infantry divisions with black personnel. One was well regarded, the other wasn't, but that was because of extremely poor leadership. A number of seperate battalions fought in Italy and the ETO. For eaxmple, there were three tank battalions; 761st ETO, 758th (Italy) and 784th (late in ETO), plus several tank destroyer battalions and field artillery units (one of the artillery units supporting the 101st Abn Div in Bastogne was "Colored"). There was one black parachute infantry battalion formed, but it didn't leave the CONUS. The 555th Parachute Ingfantry ended up being used for fighting forest fires and laid the groundwork for the modern "smoke jumper" that is still used for fire fighting. The Japanese-Americans were mostly in the 442nd Regimental Combat Team that served in Italy and went to France with the rest of VI Corps. Mostly the black troops served in construction, quartermaster and other service units. In 1945 the infantry replacement crisis in the ETO caused many units to accept Negro soldiers into existing infantry units, although many kept them in seperate platoons. The Navy only experimented with black crewmen (other than mess stewards) and a few black officers. The USMC did not have any black Marines in combat in WW2. So, yes they were there, but no, the possibilities are not endless.

 

[theBaron]

I think (but don't really definitively know) that they principally provided a support role and since most offerings tend to be combat troops, that is the reason you don't see more offerings.

I think you've hit a major point on the head here, Brad, especially regarding WWII. With the exception of some famous combat units, or individuals, like the Tuskeegee airmen, or Doris Miller at Pearl Harbor, the overwhelming majority of blacks who served in our armed forces were relegated to support roles. There aren't many makers who make quartermaster units, and there just aren't a lot of collectors who will buy them.

Prost!
(the other) Brad

 

[ucla1967]

I think (but don't really definitively know) that they principally provided a support role and since most offerings tend to be combat troops, that is the reason you don't see more offerings. QUOTE]

You are right - the Army hierarchy was quite racist at the time. They honestly believed that the Negro could not participate in modern combat effectively. Fortunately they were proven wrong when small number of blacks were palced in segregated combat arms units. In the air there was the famous 332nd Fighter Group (the "Red Tails"), plus at least one associated B25 bomber group. The Army had two infantry divisions with black personnel. One was well regarded, the other wasn't, but that was because of extremely poor leadership. A number of seperate battalions fought in Italy and the ETO. For eaxmple, there were three tank battalions; 761st ETO, 758th (Italy) and 784th (late in ETO), plus several tank destroyer battalions and field artillery units (one of the artillery units supporting the 101st Abn Div in Bastogne was "Colored"). There was one black parachute infantry battalion formed, but it didn't leave the CONUS. The 555th Parachute Ingfantry ended up being used for fighting forest fires and laid the groundwork for the modern "smoke jumper" that is still used for fire fighting. The Japanese-Americans were mostly in the 442nd Regimental Combat Team that served in Italy and went to France with the rest of VI Corps. Mostly the black troops served in construction, quartermaster and other service units. In 1945 the infantry replacement crisis in the ETO caused many units to accept Negro soldiers into existing infantry units, although many kept them in seperate platoons. The Navy only experimented with black crewmen (other than mess stewards) and a few black officers. The USMC did not have any black Marines in combat in WW2. So, yes they were there, but no, the possibilities are not endless.

I was generally aware of the tank, tank destroyer, and artillery battalions you mentioned plus the 332nd Fighter Group and the 442nd Regimental Combat team. On a personal note, I actually saw the 555th Parachute Infantry make a jump at the end of World War II. I was about three or four years old when my parents took me to Pendleton (Oregon) Field, on the outskirts of my hometown, to see a large demonstration of parachute infantry jumping from C-47s into the wheat fields surrounding the base. It wasn't until several decades later that I learned that the men were colored and had been used to fight forest fires in the Pacific Northwest. There were several fighter (P-38s) and bomber (B-25s and B-17s) units assigned to the base during the war, but I don't know if any 555th paratroopers were stationed at Pendleton Field or not. My dad was a crash crew fireman at the base during the war, but I can't ask him since he passed away ten years ago at the age of 87.

 

[Fubar]

The Montford Point Marines were on Iwo Jima. My Uncle Irby was wounded there on the beach when his DUKW was hit by artillery fire.

 

[Poppo]

Thank you all for you interesting posts....I would also add that the indian british troops and aboriginals australian soldiers in the 8th army are missing...

 

[jazzeum]

K & C did make a set of Indian troops for 8th Army.

 

[Jack]

Not many Indigenous Australians served during WW2 for reasons generally outside of their control. As a percentage of the overall enlistment they were not statistically significant although a few did make a name for themselves, particularly Leonard Waters in the RAAF. Approximately 400 served during WW1. Attempting to produce toy soldiers representing indigenous Australians would be a brave, brave move.

The AWM includes this on their website:

In 1939 Indigenous Australians were divided over the issue of military service. Some Aboriginal organisations believed war service would help the push for full citizenship rights and proposed the formation of special Aboriginal battalions to maximise public visibility. Others, such as William Cooper, the Secretary of the Australian Indigenous Australians’ League, argued that Indigenous Australians should not fight for White Australia. Cooper had lost his son in the First World War and was bitter that Aboriginal sacrifice had not brought any improvement in rights and conditions. He likened conditions in White-administered Aboriginal settlements to those suffered by Jews under Hitler. Cooper demanded improvements at home before taking up "‘the privilege of defending the land which was taken from him by the White race without compensation or even kindness'.

At the start of the Second World War Indigenous Australians and Torres Strait Islanders were allowed to enlist and many did so. But in 1940 the Defence Committee decided the enlistment of Indigenous Australians was "neither necessary not desirable", partly because White Australians would object to serving with them. However, when Japan entered the war increased need for manpower forced the loosening of restrictions. Torres Strait Islanders were recruited in large numbers and Indigenous Australians increasingly enlisted as soldiers and were recruited or conscripted into labour corps.

With the Japanese advance in 1942, Indigenous Australians and Torres Strait Islanders in the north found themselves in the front line against the attackers. There were fears that Aboriginal contact with Japanese pearlers before the war might lead to their giving assistance to the enemy. Like the peoples of South-East Asia under colonial regimes, Indigenous Australians might easily have seen the Japanese as liberators from White rule. Many did express bitterness at their treatment, but, overwhelmingly, Indigenous Australians supported the country's defence.

Hundreds of Indigenous Australians served in the 2nd AIF and the militia. Many were killed fighting and at least a dozen died as prisoners of war. As in the First World War, Indigenous Australians served under the same conditions as Whites and, in most cases, with the promise of full citizenship rights after the war. Generally, there seems to have been little racism between soldiers. (AWM)


The absence of racism was not generally reflective of Australian society as a whole but I suppose wartime as a way of removing these kinds of barriers.

 

[larso]

"The USMC did not have any black Marines in combat in WW2. So, yes they were there, but no, the possibilities are not endless."

One of the memoirs I read dealt with Peleliu, though I can't recall which one. Anyway this fellow related the story of some black marines who voluntarily left their beach duties to reinforce one of the 1st Div units that had been decimated. The white marines by this point were in no state to be picky and the help was greatly appreciated. This situation was no doubt the exception rather than the norm of course.

 

[The Military Workshop]

Attempting to produce toy soldiers representing indigenous Australians would be a brave,
brave move.

For some reason I am thinking "brave, brave move" as spoken by Sir Humphrey Appleby.

 

[King & Country]

Hi Guys,

“Poppo” raises an interesting point about ethnicity in general in the toy soldier world.

Speaking on behalf of K&C over the last 30 years we have produced Zulus… Gurkhas… Sikhs… Chinese… African Americans …Japanese …Afghans…
Arabs… Vietnamese… Native Americans… to name but a few!

Other companies have also produced other soldiers of different races, perhaps Poppo you just need to look a little bit harder…

Just recently K&C produced a whole big batch of Italian Colonial Askaris from Eritrea… See photo attached… Did you buy them Poppo…? If so, a very big congratulations and thankyou… If not… why not?

Best wishes and happy collecting!

Andy C.