WWI Tanks in WWII (1 Viewer)

[Peter Reuss]

In the eBay auction of 800 WWII photos from the Eastern Front, there are what seem to be Mark IV (or similar) WWI vintage tanks. I had no clue they were even in use by WWII. Am I IDing these correctly?

 

[Louis Badolato]

Those definitely look like British Mark series tanks, could be anything from Mark IV's to the later Marks from the post war era. Either way I had not idea the Russians were desperate enough to throw those against Panzers. Talk about suicidal!

 

[lancer]

In the eBay auction of 800 WWII photos from the Eastern Front, there are what seem to be Mark IV (or similar) WWI vintage tanks. I had no clue they were even in use by WWII. Am I IDing these correctly?

Just took a shot at the answer under the e-bay watch thread where you asked the question first. -- lancer

 

[lancer]

Just took a shot at the answer under the e-bay watch thread where you asked the question first. -- lancer

Upon looking closely at the photos, I believe my quess is correct that these are Russian Civil War monuments. The destroyed Mk.IV is elevated on what looks to be a platform (for display) and probably was the victim of German target practice or a mis-identification in heat of battle. The 2nd photo shows 2 Mk.IV's flanking a stairway, also a static display. Without an ID on the building this is all just guesswork. I still believe that the Mk.IV's are examples captured from the Whites and displayed as war trophies although it is possible (unknown to me, though) that the Reds actually used them. Still, they are monuments to the Red victory in the Civil War. -- lancer

 

[Peter Reuss]

Upon looking closely at the photos, I believe my quess is correct that these are Russian Civil War monuments. The destroyed Mk.IV is elevated on what looks to be a platform (for display) and probably was the victim of German target practice or a mis-identification in heat of battle. The 2nd photo shows 2 Mk.IV's flanking a stairway, also a static display. Without an ID on the building this is all just guesswork. I still believe that the Mk.IV's are examples captured from the Whites and displayed as war trophies although it is possible (unknown to me, though) that the Reds actually used them. Still, they are monuments to the Red victory in the Civil War. -- lancer

The more I look at it, I believe you may be correct. Those do look like they are flanking the stairs.

 

[Louis Badolato]

Upon looking closely at the photos, I believe my quess is correct that these are Russian Civil War monuments. The destroyed Mk.IV is elevated on what looks to be a platform (for display) and probably was the victim of German target practice or a mis-identification in heat of battle. The 2nd photo shows 2 Mk.IV's flanking a stairway, also a static display. Without an ID on the building this is all just guesswork. I still believe that the Mk.IV's are examples captured from the Whites and displayed as war trophies although it is possible (unknown to me, though) that the Reds actually used them. Still, they are monuments to the Red victory in the Civil War. -- lancer

Your eyes must be a lot better than mine, because I don't see a platform at all. The first picture shows a tank with the track blown off and stretched out flat on the ground, the second shows a tank on a pile of dirt as far as I can see.

 

[Peter Reuss]

An interesting discussion can be found here:
http://www.ww2f.com/weapons-wwii/22200-wwi-tanks-wwii.html

Apparently some WERE in use. This is going to call for more research!

 

[lancer]

Your eyes must be a lot better than mine, because I don't see a platform at all. The first picture shows a tank with the track blown off and stretched out flat on the ground, the second shows a tank on a pile of dirt as far as I can see.

Louis, look at the left track in the first photo. It is clearly elevated off the ground in what appears to be a parallel angle to the ground which could indicate a platform (concrete?) under the center mass of the tank. -- lancer

 

[lancer]

An interesting discussion can be found here:
http://www.ww2f.com/weapons-wwii/22200-wwi-tanks-wwii.html

Apparently some WERE in use. This is going to call for more research!

This is very interesting. I never knew that such use of the Mk.'s exsisted during WW2, although I was aware of the Renault's being used. I still think those photos are of war trophies, having seen similar photos in the past. JMO though. -- lancer

 

[Louis Badolato]

Louis, look at the left track in the first photo. It is clearly elevated off the ground in what appears to be a parallel angle to the ground which could indicate a platform (concrete?) under the center mass of the tank. -- lancer

My eyes really aren't that great anymore (too many years spending 14 hours a day staring into a computer monitor), I really can't tell, I'll have to take your word for it.

 

[jazzeum]

This is a little different but I had read that the Char Bs were a kind of WWI tank, sort of a transitional tank. In addition, the Germans used captured Char Bs.

 

[lancer]

This is a little different but I had read that the Char Bs were a kind of WWI tank, sort of a transitional tank. In addition, the Germans used captured Char Bs.

Brad, the Char Bs were WW1 kind of tanks in the sense that French tactics dictated that tanks were to be used in infantry support, as had been learned in WW1. The Chars were actually very good tanks for their time and were, in fact, superior to anything the Germans had on a one-to-one basis. It had better armor and guns. It was superior German tactics that carried the day and left the French in the dust. -- Al

 

[forlornhoper]

the russians would never had used WW1 tanks against the germans,the russians were already technically ahead of the germans by 1941,in fact by the end of july 1941 the germans knew that their most modern tank was obselete incomparison to the kv series,T34 and could not withstand the 7.62mm anti tank gun.This revelation made the panzerwaffe reel and at that stage the germans called into play captured russian KVs 1 and 2,T34s and any 7.62mm guns to fill the technological gap.Throughout the war the russians continually experimented with AFV technology and developed sloping armour as a consequence.In 1945 during a military parade in berlin the russians displayed for the first time and to all the other allies surprise the IS3 battle tank,that was way ahead of anything the british or the americans had in their armoury and if memory serves the american general reviewing the parade gasped in horror.The russians did use their own obselete tanks in their arsenal in the early 1941 battles until ALL were lost through attrition,they also used lend lease tanks under duress,the M3 lee was known as " the coffin for seven brothers" and their experience with the sherman was similiar to the other allies "cookers".Russian tank crews always preferred their own tanks even tho they were roughly engineered,but they were reliable in all weathers and terrain.

 

[Phantom Warrior]

This is a little different but I had read that the Char Bs were a kind of WWI tank, sort of a transitional tank. In addition, the Germans used captured Char Bs.

The Germans did use captured Char Bs during WW2 as they had some characteristics superior to the Panzer III and Panzer IV tanks 1940 - 1941. Aside from the big weakness of a one man turret, the Char B had 60 mm front armour, a 47 mm and 75 mm gun, each of which could take out the 1939 - 1940 Panzer III and IV and at the same time. The armour could withstand hits from the German tank guns and anti-tank guns. Compare to the later General Grant tank with 51 mm armour, a 37mm and 75 mm gun.

Char B1 bis tank ‘Eure’ entered the town of Stonne and destroyed a column of 11 PzKpfw III and 2 PzKpfw IV and two 3.7cm PaK anti-tank guns from the 10. Panzer-Division. The Eure received 140 non-penetrating hits. The early variant PzKpfw IV only had armour of 30mm thick on the hull and turret front and 15mm on the sides. The Char B's configuration of a fixed larger calibre main gun (75mm) in the hull and a smaller gun (47mm) in the turret allowed the ‘Eure’ to simultaneously destroy the lead and end vehicles of the German armoured column with the turret and hull guns.

161 Char B1's were captured by the Germans during the Fall of France. and were used as second line and training vehicles under the name of Panzerkampfwagen B-2 740 (f). Sixty became platforms for flamethrowers as Flammwagen auf Panzerkampfwagen B-2 (f). Sixteen were converted into 105 mm self propelled artillery. I,m not sure where these were used, but Russia 1941 would be a good guess.

Terry