ME262 Swallow (1 Viewer)

[Mitch]

Guys...

Have always thought of the bungling that went on and meddling from Hitler about this aircraft what would have happened with the day time bombing raids had they pressed on with it as a fighter jet only.

The following comment from Adolf Galland suggests the catastrophe that awaited the US Bomber crews had this been the case

'' If we had of used the Messerschmitt 262 in fighter operation, lets say only one hundred of this fourteen hundred which had been built, I am curtain that we would have destroyed at least two hundred (bombers) in each day.
This means the (Me) 262 could have made the first wave of attack, and they would have broken the (bomber) formation, then our fighters, our prop fighters could do the rest.
The day raids would have been stopped very soon’.

We know how succesful they were in the limited numbers that were used its certainly feasable they could have done just what he stated had they been used in such force and numbers. Its probable that with such huge casualties we would have had to at least suspend the daylight bombing raids

As its quite topical with K&C about to release the fighter bomber version I thought I would see what the forum thought
Mitch

 

[Combat]

The Nazi's became masters of deflecting blame onto Hitler after the war for many of their tactical errors. There was a great deal of truth to that, but in many cases there was plenty of blame to go around. In the case of the 262, Hitler had directed the Luftwaffe to develop a bomber that could penetrate allied air defenses and cause havoc with the supply lines. That's what he wanted. Instead what he got was a fighter.

 

[Mitch]

Was this not a true case of Hitler thinking he knew better from what I read did not everyone realise what it could potentially do and, to some extent in reality did but, Hitler demanded a fighter bomber which, meant strengthening the fusilage to take bombs.

Had it stayed in its primary goal as a fighter it would have been serviced to the Luftwaffe earlier and, with potentially devastating consequences for bomber pilots especially but also fighter pilots.

Even at the late stage it did enter it is credited with approx 509 kills for the loss of approx 100 many on take of or landing. The kill rate suggests for all its early flaws that it was a purebred fighter
Mitch

 

[Phantom Warrior]

I have read that it was Hitler demanding muti-role aircraft that caused the delays in the 262 and had they got it into service when it could have been ready as a fighter, it probably would have stopped the daylight bombing (but received double the night bombings). Hitler could have had his jet bomber too in the Arado.

And I agree with Mitch about doing the fighter version of the 262

Terry

 

[IXEC]

Hitler's vision of the 262 as a bomber, was for it to break up the Allied Invasion. He knew this plane, in numbers, would get through the defences and could wreck the invasion fleet. When he asked if the plane would be ready for such a task no one told him the truth...

 

[Mitch]

IXEC...

I think the meeting your referring to was the one on 23rd November at Berchtesgaden with Goering, Milch, Galland et al and Speer wher he asked about how many had been made for fighter/bomber roles and was told none. Obviously, he went mad according to reports but, Goering and the Luftwaffe high command new its potential as a fighter especially, as the US were thinking of using new bombers in the west which, conventional fighters at that time could not deal with.

Even Messersschmitt at the initial meeting on 26th November with Goerings approval paid lip service to Hitlers demands about a fighter bomber. The nine ME262's that were fitted with bombs were up near the believed real invasion at the pa de calais Kommando schenk and, played little part in Normandy at all.

Its interesting the debate about whether Hitler denied the Luftwaffe a weapon which, could have made a difference even at the late stage in the war.
Mitch

 

[Combat]

I doubt larger numbers of ME 262s would have made much difference in the outcome. The Germans never really had a problem producing fighters even at the end of the war. They made plenty. Rather they ran short on experienced pilots and fuel to fly them. Even more and better planes like the 262 wouldn't have done much good sitting on the ground.

 

[Mitch]

Combat....

I suppose its what you call 'a difference' had they had them earlier than they did without the meglomaniac Hitler thinking he knew best then, it may well have stopped the bombers and, allowed Germany to have daytime relief to go about their wartime business. They could have stopped the daytime raids on the Rumanian oil fields which, Luftwaffe command had thought would be an ideal use for them.

You make a good point about the ME262 being of a lesser influence than it would have been due to fuel and some of the better pilots Galland grouped to fly these aircraft.

I am sure there are plenty of bomber/fighter crews quite thankfull that it came later than it could have
Mitch

 

[Spitfrnd]

I doubt larger numbers of ME 262s would have made much difference in the outcome. The Germans never really had a problem producing fighters even at the end of the war. They made plenty. Rather they ran short on experienced pilots and fuel to fly them. Even more and better planes like the 262 wouldn't have done much good sitting on the ground.

That is quite true. Also it is good to note that the 262 was a revolutionary aircraft, not a superiority aircraft. As the first of its kind, it truly had as many faults, if not more than virtues. Yes it could fly and climb faster than any allied fighter of the time but there its superiority rather abruptly ended. Its engines, fuel system and landing gear were very fragile and as many were lost to accidents and mechanical failures as combat. While it was indeed fast, its trottle control was poor making airspeed changes risky and its very high wing loading made it a dog in turns. Effectively it was a one trick pony and much, much better against bombers than the allied fighters of the time.

Also one needs to consider its kill / ratio claims with some skepticism for several reasons. First, the kills were all based simply on pilot claims with little independent verification. Second, the numbers shown for the 262 simply don't fit overall allied loss records. For example, German sources frequently claim 4-500 bombers and 1-200 fighters for the beast. Yet, it only became operational at the end of January 1945 and the USAAF reports the loss, to all enemy aircraft of 480
total aircraft in 1945 Europe, consisting of 206 heavy bombers, 23 medium and light bombers and 251 fighters. Of these, 123 were in January before the 262 was fully operational. Of course, the Luftwaffe hadn't quite given up at that time and there were quite a few other flighters flying which undoubtedly contributed to that total. Finally, direct engagement reports show ratios of more like 3 bombers to each fighter loss in the recorded 262 attacks. Even then, it must also be remembered that only the very best aces generally flew the 262 and they could get kills in just about anything that flew.

Also, while certainly attacking it in the landing phase was the tactic used for greatest effect, very many allied pilots brought these jets down using some of the best prop fighters of the time, including the Tempest and the Mark XIV; in fact, even the Jug could catch it in a dive and all of them could out turn it.

 

[Mitch]

Franz Schall 17 kills six B17's 10 P51 Mustangs
Heinrich Bar 16 kills
Kurt Welfer 25 Mosquito's and four bombers.

Thes pilots were all 'aces' and cannot see why they would suddenly begin to make up kills that late in the war.

The aircraft was remarkable for its time and a few teething problems caused problems some of these were being ironed out as the war came to its close. The aircraft was difficult to turn and Luftwaffe pilots were warned against airial combat with fighters probably due to its wing loading which was very high I believe somewhere around 60 ILBs per square inch but, german pilots were doing well in the early stages of this fighters life. The origin of this post was about the earlier introduction of this as a pure fighter and would it have caused great problems for the bomber fleets. I think it would have and, as the Luftwaffe adapted to some of the difficultues with this aircraft especially the 30mm cannons accuracy at long distance. they began to use R4M rockets and attack at greater distances firing rockets at bomber formations in what was called the Luftwaffe wolf packs.

Don't know about it being a one hit wonder it may well be seen by some as that in its early inception. So concerned were the allies about this and the damage they could cause can be seen by the introduction of the GM1 system into mustangs to give a quick burst of power to allow mustangs to have a better chance against these fighters.

The germans were also aware of the throttle issues etc on landing and take of and introduced 'Flak alley's' around 262 airfields and moved take off locations and, had several units assigned to protect take of and landings with FW dora's etc covering their comrades.
Mitch

 

[Spitfrnd]

It is nothing about the integrity of pilot claims, simply about the accuracy. The reason the allies required confirmation is that pilot reported kills were well demonstrated to be wildly inflated. Trust me, even aces in a combat situation, do not have the luxury to be sure that ever kill is real; they have a few other things to worry about, like the 6 P-51s looking for their heads when attacking a bomber formation. The 262 was a very effective bomber interceptor but it was not designed to be or capable of being an air superiority fighter. Relative to other German fighters they did have a better record for the small percentage of sorties they represented but again look at who was flying them. There were probably no more than 200 or so that ever made it to full operation. Frankly, had they become more of an issue, the allies would have diverted more fighter resourses to deal with them but in the end they just weren't much of a factor.

For the course of the war, it really matters little. As Combat said, by that time the numbers were simply against Germany and more planes on the ground would have meant relatively little.

 

[Mitch]

I think it was intended to be an air superiority weapon from what I have read about it and, do believe it ws well capable of being so. The 262 was born from a fighter standpoint and the bomber success has not been proven either way

Contrary to myths about the engines failings the Jumo004B I think had a 7% bypass which was to cool the turbines blades but, something which was unexpected was the contribution to thrust and fuel efficiency which, probably was the reason for its great range and time in the air. This in itself must have been about twenty plus years in advance of its time in axial jet design. I think the myth of poor engines may have been more down to germany's poor materials they had available in late war. The airframe itself was a good design and designed in a completely new mindset compared to allied designs which used jet engines in piston designed airframes. The ME262 was renowned for its stable handling at transonic speeds (something which the meteor and later jets were troubled with). All of these things add to its strength as a fighter.

The post was about the earlier introduction of the fighter version and had that happened I am of the opinion that these jets would have gained air superiority and devestated daytime and nighttime air raids. I agree that more allied aircraft would have been used to repel this threat but, it would have allowed greater breathing space for german ground units and industry.

Fascinating stuff though
Mitch

 

[lancer]

Just a thought here. Had the 262 been available earlier and in larger numbers, and had the 262 devastated the bombing program, thus allowing Germany more "breathing room", (and thus prolonging the war), Germany could then have become the first target for the Atomic bomb. The results can hardly be guessed at. I realize this is a big "what if" supposition, but then, so is this whole thread. When "what if" is interjected into history, a black hole of possibilities opens up. One of the things that makes the study of history so interesting. -- Al

 

[Mitch]

Lancer...

Do you think the US would have dropped the bomb on Germany?? I dont for sure. I think the bomb would not have been dropped on a european nation by the US for many reasons from what I have read and watched.

I would venture that it was in part a show of power to the USSR and a huge stick for bargaining at the talks about the future of the mapping out of post war europe.

I think it would have caused public outrage to drop the bomb on a european country and was easier to accept that it was dropped on Japan, an aggressor to the US

I think casualties and reducing US deaths, important as it was, would have been low on the lists of the whitehouse in making its decisions
Mitch

 

[lancer]

Lancer...

Do you think the US would have dropped the bomb on Germany?? I dont for sure. I think the bomb would not have been dropped on a european nation by the US for many reasons from what I have read and watched.

I would venture that it was in part a show of power to the USSR and a huge stick for bargaining at the talks about the future of the mapping out of post war europe.

I think it would have caused public outrage to drop the bomb on a european country and was easier to accept that it was dropped on Japan, an aggressor to the US

I think casualties and reducing US deaths, important as it was, would have been low on the lists of the whitehouse in making its decisions
Mitch

Mitch, no, I don't think that the US would seriously have considered the A-bomb for use in Europe. Too many variables that could go wrong. A limited use (smaller power/yield) bomb dropped for intimidation purposes might have been possible. For many reasons Japan was in the wrong place at the wrong time. Invasion was imminent (and greatly feared by the US military). Japan had been the aggressor, was a separate island country, and were not a white European race with a similar background. And to the last point, yes it is racist, but the Pacific War was a race war at it's base level. My point, at any rate, was once you open the box of "what ifs", all bets are off when history is involved. -- Al

 

[valmy33]

Hello Everybody,

I'm not sure that the USA were ready in 1944 for the atomic bomb.
Truman choiced this option for two reasons :

1- The boys had not to die for Japan. There were statistics and the american loss should be awful. Truman couldn't stand to have opinion against him. USA were in war since 1941

2- The american treasure had some problems. War had to stop quickly.

Faithfully
Valmy

 

[valmy33]

Hello Everybody,

I'm not sure that the USA were ready in 1944 for the atomic bomb.
Truman choiced this option for two reasons :

1- The boys had not to die for Japan. There were statistics and the american loss should be awful. Truman couldn't stand to have opinion against him. USA were in war since 1941

2- The american treasure had some problems. War had to stop quickly.

Faithfully
Valmy

The test in the desert were ending in june 1945, If i've good remember
In Europe, war was over in may.

 

[Mitch]

Lancer...

Fully agree with you about at base level it was a race war and, I think you only have to look at the propaganda from WWII to see how the Japanese were portrayed to see that. I think much of that derived from the fact that Pearl Harbour was taken as a serious blow not just militarily but, more importantly psychologically by the US. Plus whichever way one looks at it the japanese were of different racial make up to white US or white europeans and, we are always more comfortable with things we know.

Interesting idea about a smaller bomb on european germany you just wonder what the impact would have been against the use had the pictures of severe radiation burns been europeans not japanese. I remember seeing some poles about the images that came from Hiroshima on american people and, without being too simplistic the replies were basically tough across the board.

Once the lid of pandora's box is of there certainly is an interesting debate for sure
Mitch

 

[lancer]

Lancer...

Fully agree with you about at base level it was a race war and, I think you only have to look at the propaganda from WWII to see how the Japanese were portrayed to see that. I think much of that derived from the fact that Pearl Harbour was taken as a serious blow not just militarily but, more importantly psychologically by the US. Plus whichever way one looks at it the japanese were of different racial make up to white US or white europeans and, we are always more comfortable with things we know.

Interesting idea about a smaller bomb on european germany you just wonder what the impact would have been against the use had the pictures of severe radiation burns been europeans not japanese. I remember seeing some poles about the images that came from Hiroshima on american people and, without being too simplistic the replies were basically tough across the board.

Once the lid of pandora's box is of there certainly is an interesting debate for sure
Mitch

One of the reasons I have always found history (especially military history) so fascinating is the ability to take the lid off the "what if" box and the never ending probabilities that result. Intelligent "what if" conversations are a great pleasure even though they change nothing. Call it what you want, 20-20 hindsight or Monday morning quarterbacking, the "what if" conversation can be a great deal of fun. -- Al

 

[Combat]

Would the Germans have used the A-bomb if they had it? My guess is probably yes at least on the Eastern Front. It's interesting, though, that Hitler refused to authorize the use of poison gas even though the Germans had stockpiles near the end of the war and it might have been very effective.