Market Garden 101st Airborne (1 Viewer)

[BigDenny]

If King & Country released a set of 101st Airborne to go along with its Market Garden series (with the green M43 uniforms), would you be interested?

Best Regards,
Mike

 

[Mitch]

I have voted that I would pass as for me, there are still too many brits that need to be done before we address (if they are going to) the US forces that participated in this battle. K&C have released albeit discontinued now, many US para's from the 101st and 82nd in the D-Day range which, could be used by collectors for this party.

As the range expands (which it will, even for those who love to say its finished!!!)but, IMO and, nearly everyone I have spoken with when you mention Market garden or any of the other names this battle was called everyone to a person mentions first and foremost the brit airborne division. Just a lot more of these to be released before we add or dilute (whichever word takes your fancy) to the MG range
Mitch

 

[arnhem44mad]

I'd definetly buy them, the jumpsuits make it hard for me personally to include these in Market Garden dioramas as I know they wouldn't have worn them and I am a Market Garden die hard and like historical accuracy to a certain degree so would love some paras with m43 jackets and trousers!^&grin

Anything to do with Operation Market Garden is for me to be quite honest!^&grin

I think we may see some more Market Garden items in time for September!^&grinJust got one of those feelings!:wink2:

Scott

 

[Guy]

I would have to pass. There are enough US airborne troops around. The difference in the jumpsuit on a TS is almost invisible. TG has now started putting 101 and 82 paras on the market . When one thinks about MG; I have to agree with Mitch : one thinks about the British forces( and don't forget the Poles)
guy

 

[arnhem44mad]

I would have to pass. There are enough US airborne troops around. The difference in the jumpsuit on a TS is almost invisible. TG has now started putting 101 and 82 paras on the market . When one thinks about MG; I have to agree with Mitch : one thinks about the British forces( and don't forget the Poles)
guy

Sorry Guy but have to severely disagree on both points!

M43 jackets and trousers and jumpsuits are quite different on figures given the fact that M43s are GREEN and Jumpsuits are TANISH with GREEN reinforced areas!

Also the fact that the series is called 'MARKET GARDEN' and not just ARNHEM, completely opens the opportunity for Americans and XXX Corps items. American contribution to the operation cannot be overlooked! What about the destroyed bridge at Son? Capture of Grave Bridge? Capture of Nijmegen by boat assault accross the river? Help of American forces to repel German attempts to cut the advance on 'Hell's Highway' in half? I think that comment may be slightly offensive to our American Cousins.

Also this is the King and Country section of the forum and so some collectors may not own or collect any Tomm Gunn figures (myself for instance) so to say that one can use use another manufacturer's products instead of new products which may be brought out by a competing company, when even they are not exactly historicaly accurate to use in a D-Day scenario either, is a bit of bad of a bad argument as these do not meet the criteria of having M43s on either.

Scott

 

[binder001]

I have always thought that any Market-Garden scenario needs an American presence. As stated, it is not just "Anhem" it's "Market-Garden". If it's just Arnhem then why model XXX Corps? You rember the guys who helped XXX Corps even get close to Arnhem? They were US Army paratroops and glider troops. There were two US divisions to one British even if the "Red Devils" did have twice the tragedy.

From a toy soldier display standpoint: the US Army had switched from the M1942 (light OD #3) jump uniform with the glider troops in GI wool uniforms and jackets to a more standard system based on the M1943 pants and jacket (the green OD #7) with both paras and glider troops in similar uniforms. One parachute infantry regiment of the 82nd Airborne that had been detached to the Italian campaign still wore the M1942 jump uniform, so one can have contrasts (or makle use of previous US paras). There have been few (if any) toy soldiers in the later jump uniforms. Besides, it's one of those interesting campaigns where the Allies fought side-by-side so you can have a Firefly or Cromwell supporting US troops. There were common items of equipment too, which could allow some cost-effect production. All three Allied airborne divisions used the 75mm pack howitzer, with but a few detail differences. One could produce a 75mm howitzer then market both US and British crews. Same for the 6-pounder AT gun; the US airborne units often traded their US 57mm guns for British 6-pounders on the airborne carriage as they were a better fit in the gliders - same gun, different uniforms on the crews.

Lastly, from a marketing and sales standpoint, the M1943 airborne uniform was not only worn in Market-Garden but by the US airborne divisions committed to the Ardennes campaign as well as the 17th Airborne in Opn Varsity, the airborne assault across the Rhine.

So let's not count out the US contribution to Market-Garden and look at the huge possibilities in adding the 82nd and 101st Airborne units.

Gary B.

 

[Guy]

I do not count out the contribution of the US airborne forces in operation MG, on the contrary. I only want to raise the point that for the moment there are a lot of US paras being created and marketed in the TS business. If it is a question of small differences ( model and colour) between the jumpsuits '42 and '43, than that's a job that I prefer to do myself to put it right rather than to have to buy a brand new figure .I have an enormous long list of "wanting to have", of older discontinued figures to complete my collection. They have priority . I would rather spend my available funds on them than on new paras . Here,when you mention operation MG, people automatically think about the British Paras jumping on Arnhem.( I am sure the movie "A bridge too far" has something to do with it)When I talked with my father (when he was alive)about the war and more specifically about MG, he remembered the thousands and thousands of planes that flew over his house bringing the British paras to Arnhem. There are 10 times more books published about the airborne landings in Oosterhout than about the role of the US 101st and 82nd airborne during the operation.This is unfortunately the reality.
guy

 

[PanzerAce1944]

Seems very feasable to do. Keep voting "yes" for those in favor and maybe something will surface.

 

[jazzeum]

I don't see how you can say there are enough around, unless you are an old time collector. All the old ones are retired. Think of the newer collectors who would like to get some. TG seems to be making some very nice ones though; I purchased a set recently.

 

[Firebat]

Market Garden US Paras are ABSOLUTELY needed...No one has done them and the uniform is VERY different from D-Day.....Maybe Conte's paras come the closest.

 

[arnhem44mad]

Market Garden US Paras are ABSOLUTELY needed...No one has done them and the uniform is VERY different from D-Day.....Maybe Conte's paras come the closest.

Yeah, they're Vandervoort figure's uniform is pretty good!

Scott

 

[Firebat]

i have always thought that any market-garden scenario needs an american presence. As stated, it is not just "anhem" it's "market-garden". If it's just arnhem then why model xxx corps? You rember the guys who helped xxx corps even get close to arnhem? They were us army paratroops and glider troops. There were two us divisions to one british even if the "red devils" did have twice the tragedy.

From a toy soldier display standpoint: The us army had switched from the m1942 (light od #3) jump uniform with the glider troops in gi wool uniforms and jackets to a more standard system based on the m1943 pants and jacket (the green od #7) with both paras and glider troops in similar uniforms. One parachute infantry regiment of the 82nd airborne that had been detached to the italian campaign still wore the m1942 jump uniform, so one can have contrasts (or makle use of previous us paras). There have been few (if any) toy soldiers in the later jump uniforms. Besides, it's one of those interesting campaigns where the allies fought side-by-side so you can have a firefly or cromwell supporting us troops. There were common items of equipment too, which could allow some cost-effect production. All three allied airborne divisions used the 75mm pack howitzer, with but a few detail differences. One could produce a 75mm howitzer then market both us and british crews. Same for the 6-pounder at gun; the us airborne units often traded their us 57mm guns for british 6-pounders on the airborne carriage as they were a better fit in the gliders - same gun, different uniforms on the crews.

Lastly, from a marketing and sales standpoint, the m1943 airborne uniform was not only worn in market-garden but by the us airborne divisions committed to the ardennes campaign as well as the 17th airborne in opn varsity, the airborne assault across the rhine.

So let's not count out the us contribution to market-garden and look at the huge possibilities in adding the 82nd and 101st airborne units.

Gary b.

Didn't see this..........................that says it all hands down....conversation over.......But I would like to see Thomas Gunn do them

 

[Guy]

Brad
I only started collecting toy soldiers in 2008. As far as US paras are concerned in the 4 years that I am collecting, I managed to trace and collect more than 20 US paras belonging to the 82nd and 101st airborne . I am awaiting another 4 which I found on the internet recently . You must admit that this is already a small TS army of paras which gives a lot of possibilities for the making of dioramas.
guy

 

[arnhem44mad]

Brad
I only started collecting toy soldiers in 2008. As far as US paras are concerned in the 4 years that I am collecting, I managed to trace and collect more than 20 US paras belonging to the 82nd and 101st airborne . I am awaiting another 4 which I found on the internet recently . You must admit that this is already a small TS army of paras which gives a lot of possibilities for the making of dioramas.
guy

Yes you can get King and Country us paras...on the secondary market! They currently have no paras of d-day or market garden equipment and this thread was started about the idea of king and country starting up a new range of paras in m43s specifically for market garden, which as earlier stated could possibly be used in a Operation Varsity setting.

Scott

 

[villagehorse]

Passing only because TG are already in the glider ahead of K&C. Cheers, Robin.

 

[binder001]

Just to reiterate for the folks who say "enough US paras" the change from the M1942 jump suit to using components of the M1943 uniform involved not just the color but the cut and fit of the uniform, bot pants and jacket. The US Army wanted to eliminate the plethora of "special" uniforms that were in the supply system. Originally the paratroopers were to receive the standard M1943 jacket and pants as well as the standard boots (referred to as "double buckle" boots because of the built in leather gaiters). The paratroopers had a minor rebellion and the Army let them keep their Corcoran "jump boots". The airborne units also had their own sewing staff, the parachute riggers. The riggers customized uniforms and web gear for the units, hence the term "rigger pouches" for the multi-role ammo pouches that fit onto a standard pistol belt. The riggers started adding the baggy leg pants that were so distinctive of a US paratrooper. One veteran mentioned that some would cut the pockets off M42 pants and sewed them onto the M43 pants, which would lead to a light-tannish pocket on a dark olive green trouser. Haven't ever confirmed that one. Anyway, the end result was a US paratrooper uniform that looked quite different from the ones that they wore into Sicily and Normandy. I have seen a number of 1/35th figures of the late jump uniform, but not any toy/collectible soldiers.

Gary B.

 

[Guy]

Just to reiterate for the folks who say "enough US paras" the change from the M1942 jump suit to using components of the M1943 uniform involved not just the color but the cut and fit of the uniform, bot pants and jacket. The US Army wanted to eliminate the plethora of "special" uniforms that were in the supply system. Originally the paratroopers were to receive the standard M1943 jacket and pants as well as the standard boots (referred to as "double buckle" boots because of the built in leather gaiters). The paratroopers had a minor rebellion and the Army let them keep their Corcoran "jump boots". The airborne units also had their own sewing staff, the parachute riggers. The riggers customized uniforms and web gear for the units, hence the term "rigger pouches" for the multi-role ammo pouches that fit onto a standard pistol belt. The riggers started adding the baggy leg pants that were so distinctive of a US paratrooper. One veteran mentioned that some would cut the pockets off M42 pants and sewed them onto the M43 pants, which would lead to a light-tannish pocket on a dark olive green trouser. Haven't ever confirmed that one. Anyway, the end result was a US paratrooper uniform that looked quite different from the ones that they wore into Sicily and Normandy. I have seen a number of 1/35th figures of the late jump uniform, but not any toy/collectible soldiers.

Gary B.

Gary
These are all small alterations that lay within the possibilities of every toy soldier collector who has a little bit of modelling skill
guy:smile2:

 

[binder001]

Gary
These are all small alterations that lay within the possibilities of every toy soldier collector who has a little bit of modelling skill
guy:smile2:

Yes, the alterations can be done. I am an experienced convertor in several scales, but I admit that I shy away from changing all the breast pockets from angled with exposed buttons to a straight patch pocket, and the other tailoring details between the jackets. Don't forget every figures' sleeve cuff needs to be changed also.

Attached are a couple views of an M1942 jump suit jacket, following that are photos of M1943 jackets. A bit of trivia - according to a post at the US Militaria Forum not all US paratroopers from Market Garden added the baggy thigh pockets. Some had the usual two pockets with ties, some one pocket, some didn't add any. The securing ties for the pants pockets were often cut off after landing as they were a bother.

Gary B

 

[Firebat]

Again I totally agree with Binder. There are a lot of differences. The pouch on the helmet, the cut of the pockets and what about the American Flag with the white arm band, all of this besides the color. Also no one complains when Germans upon Germans upon Germans, upon Germans are produced.

 

[Mitch]

Alex...

Not sure anyone is complaining about these being released. The question was whether anyone would be interested. some will be and have expressed that some won't and have also expressed that. I think we are cyclical in this hobby and, it seems the time is here for some brit stuff with what is being released and some of the ranges which, are focusing on the brit angle of the war.

You should also know germans sell always have always will not just in this hobby but, also in the model world. If they did not they would not be made.
Mitch