Braveheart - The Real Battle of stirling Bridge (1 Viewer)

[Wraith]

Chris,

Not at all mate, nothing you've said and absolutely no apologies necessary.

My apologies to you, for not being more specific. My thoughts and comments were based purely on the post immediately prior to mine. I have no difficulty in disscusing points of dubious national morality where the incident or event occurred a hunderd or more years ago.

Where a reference is made to event in more recent times or surrounding current affairs, then care should (IMO) be taken in what is posted. Everyone (as is so often correctly pointed out), is entitled to an opinion, but I believe care ought to be exercised in expressing opinions where there is a real likelihood of hitting a raw spot.

Once again Chris, nothing you've said and on the contrary, very interesting and informative thread.

All the best,
Simon

 

[Harrytheheid]

Guys,

Just a couple of points;
Personally speaking, I'm with Modwalls and his comment regarding us being in a Country where we shouldn't be. That's most definitely NOT meant as a go at the men and women on the ground (of whatever nationality) who have a thankless task and are doing their best with what they've got. I said at the time of the initial invasion that we were all being led down the garden path by the politicians who had their own agendas. Be that as it may, the people who have my 100% backing are the ones in-country who are dealing with the situation.
The people I have no time whatsoever for are the "hairy-armpit Guardian reader brigade" who protest the situation because they too have their own agendas. I doubt very much if these people have any real concern for the indiginous population. They certainly have no concern for our servicemen and women. As far as I can tell, they're much more along the lines of;
"Lets have a day out in London Chrissie, and while we're at it we can have some fun and go join the protest march just like mum did in 1968."

Getting back to 13th/14th century crimes against movies, I'm not setting myself up as any kind of historical expert on this cos I'm not, and I'd just get shot down in flames anyway. I've already committed one howler by claiming that Diana was dead before Bravefart was released, whereas she was very much still alive and merrily creating havoc within the Brit establishment. I do think that Randall Wallace made much of the relationship between WW and the P of W in the movie so that people watching would make an unconcious connection with the situation Diana was in. Unfaithful husband paying no attention to ravishingly beautiful wife, etc. - although at least Charlie wasn't being unfaithful with another man. Dunno though, looking at Camilla, hmmm......no, not going there.....
Similarly, the story of Bruce and the Spider has to be archetypical and is probably just that, a story.
Can't remember where I read that Mirren was a real, live, person. Might have been "Wallace; Guardian of the Realm". Authors name escapes me though.

Like I've said, the stuff I've written on this thread is unsubstantiated and from memory, sometimes from books I read 10 to 15 years ago. So any further errors I've made are entirely my own. I do think that it's a fascinating period of history though, and the more I think about it, the more the figures from the K&C Crusader range begin to scream at my for paint conversions.
N'anyway.....what's not exciting about evil knights being stoopid enough to overload an old rickety bridge, then getting their just deserts at the hands of brave freedom fighters? Said freedom fighters despatching said evil knights by disembowelling the floundering horses, then sticking daggers between the gaps in armour of the evil ones as they lay helpless on the ground.

This thread sprung to life as a friendly chat between me and CC regarding the merits/demerits of Bravefart as a movie, and why manufacturers hadn't to our knowledge produced any figurines from this particular conflict. If anyone can contribute anything I haven't covered or correct any of my errors, please feel free to do so.

 

[Harrytheheid]

Simon,
Your response to CC was posted before I got my one finished.
Completely agreed regarding current events. Lets leave that one alone.
Nottingham? hmmm.....The Good King Robert was supposed to have penetrated as far as you during his many raids into England in the aftermath of Bannockburn - and extracted blackmail money to leave you lot alone.

Hope you're bearing with me on this thread, seeing as Bannockburn was the only pitched battle we ever won. Apart from Wembley 1977 of course. (British Joke).

 

[Harrytheheid]

Chris,
If you ever do make it to Stirling and get to see the Wallace monument, suggest you catch a train up to my hometown of Aberdeen which also has links to both WW and Bruce. (Bruce granted Aberdeen its charter as a Royal Borough in 1319). I'm posting a couple of snaps of the Wallace Statue that's in the city, and also the Gordon Statue - as in Chinese Gordon, or Gordon of Khartoum - who also had family ties with Aberdeen.
Incidentally, I noticed in another link that you're also interested in the British Civil Wars circa mid-1600's. If you can find it, have a read of "Montrose" by John Buchan. Its a bit hero-worshipping but still good background material. A lot of the action associated with Montrose occurred in and around Aberdeen and North-East Scotland.
And yeah, that's John Buchan as in the guy who wrote "The 39 Steps". And no, its not the same Montrose as featured in the Rob Roy movie with Liam Neeson, but an earlier and much better ancestor.

 

[modwalls]

Chris,

Not at all mate, nothing you've said and absolutely no apologies necessary.

My apologies to you, for not being more specific. My thoughts and comments were based purely on the post immediately prior to mine. I have no difficulty in disscusing points of dubious national morality where the incident or event occurred a hunderd or more years ago.

Where a reference is made to event in more recent times or surrounding current affairs, then care should (IMO) be taken in what is posted. Everyone (as is so often correctly pointed out), is entitled to an opinion, but I believe care ought to be exercised in expressing opinions where there is a real likelihood of hitting a raw spot.

Once again Chris, nothing you've said and on the contrary, very interesting and informative thread.

All the best,
Simon

Simon I guess your refering to my post, I tried not to offend any one, but I guess no matter what or how you say things, someone will always be offended. I did not mean to hit a raw spot, but just remember, there are two sides to every issue. I hold no ill feelings to anyone for things I have no control over. I feel my country sticks its nose in places it shouldn't. Don't take it so personally. Mike

 

[Harrytheheid]

Chris,
Received the PM.
Will reply in due course.

 

[Wraith]

As far as I can tell, they're much more along the lines of;
"Lets have a day out in London Chrissie, and while we're at it we can have some fun and go join the protest march just like mum did in 1968."

H,

Totally with you on that one. Although it is amusing standing on the police lines discussing the merits of their protest once it's been established that they've no idea what they're protesting about. They don't like that, but it sure helps pass the time of day for us.

As for adding anything further in terms of the history behind this era, I wish I could, but you're knowledge far outweighs mine, so I'm enjoying this as a history lesson.

Simon

 

[Currahee Chris]

Chris,
If you ever do make it to Stirling and get to see the Wallace monument, suggest you catch a train up to my hometown of Aberdeen which also has links to both WW and Bruce. (Bruce granted Aberdeen its charter as a Royal Borough in 1319). I'm posting a couple of snaps of the Wallace Statue that's in the city, and also the Gordon Statue - as in Chinese Gordon, or Gordon of Khartoum - who also had family ties with Aberdeen.
Incidentally, I noticed in another link that you're also interested in the British Civil Wars circa mid-1600's. If you can find it, have a read of "Montrose" by John Buchan. Its a bit hero-worshipping but still good background material. A lot of the action associated with Montrose occurred in and around Aberdeen and North-East Scotland.
And yeah, that's John Buchan as in the guy who wrote "The 39 Steps". And no, its not the same Montrose as featured in the Rob Roy movie with Liam Neeson, but an earlier and much better ancestor.

There is only one other place on the planet that tops "Stirling" as future places to visit and that is Normandy. I will no doubt make it someday- took the wife to Dublin and the Republic back in 1999- loved the place but she wouldn't let me stray to Scotland- we both want to go, just felt like it would be too "rushed".

I realized I have omitted something- my daughter- we gave her the middle name- Murrin-partly in honor of the figure portrayed in the movie Braveheart but more to honor the fighting spirit of the Gaellic woman. She has lived up to that ideal somewhat to my chagrin

Also, if I do get to Scotland- I'm snatching up that beautiful looking claymore of Wallace's and figuring how to get it back to the States with me- even if I have to swim across the Atlantic to make it happen

 

[Wraith]

Nottingham? hmmm.....The Good King Robert was supposed to have penetrated as far as you during his many raids into England in the aftermath of Bannockburn - and extracted blackmail money to leave you lot alone.

Hope you're bearing with me on this thread, seeing as Bannockburn was the only pitched battle we ever won. Apart from Wembley 1977 of course. (British Joke).

Nah.

He got as far as Nottingham and thought "Is this it?". Confusion reigned as the locals started shouting 'Heyup, me duck' and he left in a state of disorientation.

Wembly. 1977. A bit of a hazy memory blank for me. Did something significant happen?

Simon

 

[Wraith]

Simon I guess your refering to my post, I tried not to offend any one, but I guess no matter what or how you say things, someone will always be offended. I did not mean to hit a raw spot, but just remember, there are two sides to every issue. I hold no ill feelings to anyone for things I have no control over. I feel my country sticks its nose in places it shouldn't. Don't take it so personally. Mike

Thanks for the reply Mike. I dropped you a PM.
Simon

 

[Harrytheheid]

Nah.

He got as far as Nottingham and thought "Is this it?". Confusion reigned as the locals started shouting 'Heyup, me duck' and he left in a state of disorientation.

Wembly. 1977. A bit of a hazy memory blank for me. Did something significant happen?

Simon

Hi Simon,
Yeah wembley 1977 is somewhat a hazy blank for me as well - but that's due to the celebrations after the pitch invasion. Incidentally, I have it on good authority that there are several lawns in the Glasgow area that are descended from the Wembley turf
Never did find out what happened to the bits of the goalposts though. Pretty sure they're looked on in awe up North of the Border as something similar to shards of "The True Cross".

 

[Harrytheheid]

As far as I can tell, they're much more along the lines of;
"Lets have a day out in London Chrissie, and while we're at it we can have some fun and go join the protest march just like mum did in 1968."

H,

Totally with you on that one. Although it is amusing standing on the police lines discussing the merits of their protest once it's been established that they've no idea what they're protesting about. They don't like that, but it sure helps pass the time of day for us.

As for adding anything further in terms of the history behind this era, I wish I could, but you're knowledge far outweighs mine, so I'm enjoying this as a history lesson.

Simon

Yeah Simon,
We've all seen them, the usual "Rent-A-Mob" suspects. Space Cadets the lot of them says I.....

"Oh dear Chrissie, why doesn't the terribly unfeeling Government do something to help all these female, peg-legged, differently-coloured, single-parent, jobless, lesbian, slighty lesser achieving, deprived, illegal immigrant underclass, who simply must have been abused during their childhood."

"Oh, is that the time, please be a darling and have your man Parker get the Rolls running. Harrods is open now and I just have to get that new pair of £2000/- Gucci sunglasses that I saw Beatrice wearing at Ascot last week in Tattler magazine."

And so on, ad nauseum.......

 

[Harrytheheid]

There is only one other place on the planet that tops "Stirling" as future places to visit and that is Normandy. I will no doubt make it someday- took the wife to Dublin and the Republic back in 1999- loved the place but she wouldn't let me stray to Scotland- we both want to go, just felt like it would be too "rushed".

I realized I have omitted something- my daughter- we gave her the middle name- Murrin-partly in honor of the figure portrayed in the movie Braveheart but more to honor the fighting spirit of the Gaellic woman. She has lived up to that ideal somewhat to my chagrin

Also, if I do get to Scotland- I'm snatching up that beautiful looking claymore of Wallace's and figuring how to get it back to the States with me- even if I have to swim across the Atlantic to make it happen

Hi Chris,
I'm sure you'll realise your ambition to visit "Gods Country" one of these days.
Must admit that I'm jealous. Never been to Dublin but I understand you get a pint of Guiness to die for that's completely unlike the slop you get elsewhere - though beggars can't be choosers. And the Irish certainly know how to party....

Your wee daughter's really cute, I saw her being distracted by the TV on the "Show Your Face" thread. If she's picked up on her namesake's fighting spirit from the Braveheart movie then I'll bet she's a real handful of trouble at times. Gaelic women generally are. (Trust me, so are Chinese ones. I've often said you've NEVER been nagged until you've been nagged by a Chinese womam - true story).

Yeah, the Wallace statue claymore is really something isn't it. Thought you would like those ones. No need to snatch it up though. Directly across the street from the Gordon of Khartoum statue there's a souvineer shop that sells replicas along with the usual tourist tat. Dunno how you'd get one onto your flight back home though....

 

[kilted vampire]

Ireland was not what I thought it was going to be when I got there. But , I did get there andd for the life of me I did have a good time. I will go again and do some things differently. Chris if you want one of the Claymores try going to a Highland Game tons of the there to buy. Some good some not so good. I have Battle ready swords as well as cheapies. Guess which one I like best.

 

[Wraith]

I have Battle ready swords as well as cheapies. Guess which one I like best.

KV,

Do you by any chance have a low crime rate in your area?

Simon

 

[Bob]

Agreed....the movie is great entertainment and I've no problem with that. It's the belief that it's historical fact that cracks me up.
I'd have to check my sources, but I think Blind H was writing around 1380 ~ 1420 (?) which wasn't that long after the event. Yeah, it was probably propoganda, but again I'm almost sure that independent sources confirmed the outline of his story was based on the truth.
Glad you and others enjoy the movie.....but its hollywood.

Be careful believing Blind Harry. His The Acts and Deeds of the Illustrious and Valiant Champion Sir William Wallace, Knight of Elderslie is dated 1488 and some of the events potrayed by Wallace take place after his death. Just because he was nearly contemporary doesn’t mean he’s accurate. The Acts and Deeds are made up of romances, legends, fabrications and who knows what.

Geoffrey of Monmouth claimed all sorts of references for his History of the Kings of England but few believe him now.

Also did Bruce really reach Nottingham? He took Berwick and ravaged the North but Nottingham is a long south.

 

[Bob]

For all of it's faults- I still love that movie to DEATH!! It is my favorite movie of all time with the possible exception of Saving Private Ryan- just great great stuff..

Regarding the William Wallace saga- from what I have read on the subject- who really knows for sure- most of what exists is from Blind Harry who wrote poems about it centuries after the fact. I always take it with a grain of salt-

but, sorry man, I loved the movie- yes, sure it had some Historical gaffs but what great GREAT entertainment!!

Speaking of which, does anyone do a line of figures during the Braveheart era?? I have a 10" Dragon William Wallace figure I picked up a few years back. I gotta admit, I don't recall ever seeing anything of Wallace. I did see an Andrea miniatures figure kit- maybe it wasn't Andrea, I want to say the company came from Spain that made it., anyway, that is all I have seen.

A friend of mine who imports Russian figures from St Petersburg wanted to commission a figure of Wallace – I told him that he couldn’t sell such a figure. He could only sell Mel Gibson’s Braveheart – kilted and with a Saltire on his face.
I believe he could sell such a figure but it wouldn’t be Wallace.
Convinced him to produce a Special Scottish figure instead.

 

[debrito]

A friend of mine who imports Russian figures from St Petersburg wanted to commission a figure of Wallace – I told him that he couldn’t sell such a figure. He could only sell Mel Gibson’s Braveheart – kilted and with a Saltire on his face.
I believe he could sell such a figure but it wouldn’t be Wallace.
Convinced him to produce a Special Scottish figure instead.

Hello Bob,

What kind and size of Russians figures?

I received, last week, an e-mail form Andy responding my request for more Fall of Berlin figures or even some eastern front characters. He told me that K&C has no plans for the next year to produce any kind of eastern front battle figures or armoured. He said that is not very popular with the members. Maybe one day.

So I really interesting to continuing to develop my Diorama (Berlin 1945) so, any others figures from the east would concern me.

Cheers

 

[Bob]

http://stores.ebay.com/Valentinas-Miniatures_W0QQcolZ4QQdirZ1QQfsubZ0QQftidZ2QQtZkm

I may have mislead you. The figures are made in St Petersburg and although there are some WW2 figures the company specialises in superb painting and has figures that show this off - WW2 uniforms dont allow for much scope. The painting is completely different to the Chinese style of K&C and others.
The above link will take you to some of the figures and you can always ask if they have WW2 Russians.
I hope you find them enjoyable.
or try www.russianministuresetc.com/scripts

 

[Bob]

Hello Bob,

What kind and size of Russians figures?

I received, last week, an e-mail form Andy responding my request for more Fall of Berlin figures or even some eastern front characters. He told me that K&C has no plans for the next year to produce any kind of eastern front battle figures or armoured. He said that is not very popular with the members. Maybe one day.

So I really interesting to continuing to develop my Diorama (Berlin 1945) so, any others figures from the east would concern me.

Cheers

I spoke about Russian WW2 figure - they have some including a mine detector and a Penal Battalion Volunteer. Not on the site but contcat them and they show pictures
For the rest of you,sorry to have digressed from Braveheart