How Does K&C Decide on Cost??? (2 Viewers)

[SPICK0001]

I was just wondering if anyone knew how prices are established on King and Country pieces? I ask for this reason. I was looking at the DD068 piece which is a jeep carring a wounded GI with 2 other figures is $95. A similar piece WS097 of a German medic motorcycle runs around $115!!! Fewer men, smaller vehicle and $20 more. I just cannot understand this.

 

[King & Country]

Hi Guys,

Re “Spick’s” question...the answer is very simple...We decide on our retail price depending on what our actual cost price is.

On the specific case of DD068 and WS097 that’s also easy to answer...DD068 utilizes a polystone jeep (with metal attachments) and metal figures. WS097 the medic motorcycle set is all-metal motorcycle and figures.

The cost of metal is quite a bit more than polystone. Also even in the relatively short time between both releases...(about 12 months) the cost of labour, raw materials and transportation in China has (on average) increased by at least 30%!!!! All of this is factored into eventual selling price. So, here endeth the lesson in business economics.

On the plus side both items are still a lot cheaper than one of our competitors who is charging US$170 for a jeep and one seated figure!!!

Hope all this makes sense to one and all.

Best wishes and...happy collecting!

Andy C.

 

[Warbuff26]

Yeah and whats with the $2 difference in cost of EA023 and EA024....is it the blue paint?

 

[Wraith]

Yeah and whats with the $2 difference in cost of EA023 and EA024....is it the blue paint?

Noooo. The ammunition for the Boyes anti tank rifle is far more costly than for the Lewis.

 

[Harrytheheid]

Noooo. The ammunition for the Boyes anti tank rifle is far more costly than for the Lewis.

Naaaah. The uncammo Chevy is polystone, the cammo Chevy must be all metal that's why it costs $2 more. Obvious innit?

 

[Rutledge]

Seems to me its 100%, completely Andy's business as to what he charges, and how he comes up with his prices.

Call me a silly capitalist, but Im guessing he likely charges what he thinks the market will bear --- no more no less. Its why people are in business, afterall - to make a profit and thus recoup their cost of capital, along with a fair return.

If people dont like K&C prices, they can always go elsewhere. And if anyone thinks they can produce a better product for a lower price, no one is prohibiting anybody from doing so.

Im surprised Andy even responds to such questions. He surely doesnt have to. If he charges too much, competitors will eat his lunch. For god's sake, K&C is a great company, let the man run his business! If you dont approve, dont buy! (he may disagree with the last sentiment)

 

[Harrytheheid]

Seems to me its 100%, completely Andy's business as to what he charges, and how he comes up with his prices.

Completely agree with this post. Of course we'd all like our hobby to be less expensive but as a self-confessed K&C freak, my completely biased viewpoint is that given the overall quality of the product, the pricing is just about right.
Affordable for the average punter IMO.

 

[Wraith]

Im surprised Andy even responds to such questions. He surely doesnt have to.

Without wishing to speak for Andy himself, I suspect he responds to these questions (along with many of the other manufacturers) because Treefrogs have produced the perfect vehicle (this forum) for a two way flow of information and ideas.

The forum has 600 + members, a not insignificant number of potential customers, and whilst this does not capture every toy soldier collector out there, I'd suggest that it gives a pretty large sample base to bounce ideas about and 'test' the market.

I would say that there were some posts made for fun in relation to the $2 question, and these are not attcks on K&Cs pricing policy.

Welcome to the forum.

Simon

 

[Capitolron]

Very well said - Simon !

I agree that Andy has a good sense of humour and enjoys the give and take of the Forum. Overall the thoughts of the buying public can be easily found here.

 

[SPICK0001]

The post seems to have become a very wierd arena suggesting that it was an attack on K&C pricing. I was serious in asking the question as a newcomer to the hobby. Andy answered that in an intelligent and coherent way which is what I wanted. The answer to me made a lot a sense and with limited knowledge of how these prices are set, I appreciate the response.

 

[maddadicus]

The post seems to have become a very wierd arena suggesting that it was an attack on K&C pricing. I was serious in asking the question as a newcomer to the hobby. Andy answered that in an intelligent and coherent way which is what I wanted. The answer to me made a lot a sense and with limited knowledge of how these prices are set, I appreciate the response.

Do not worry about it......Some members have been on this forum so long, they already know what Andy is thinking and why, and so they never have to ask questionsMichael

 

[Toy Soldier Brigade]

I think pricing may have something too do with how much the K&C staff bar tab is that week.

 

[Rutledge]

I didnt mean to sound quite so snippy in my original reply. It could have been that second glass of shiraz talking - or maybe it was just me, I get cranky at times

Regardless, I like TSB's suggestion, that it all comes back to K&C's most recent bar tab...

But just so you know, I have been a regular reader here for a while. And Im always very surprised at how much grief Andy gets -- about any number of subjects. I know its not meant maliciously or anything, but it just seems to go too far at times (admittedly, this is my unsolicited opinion. Andy certainly doesnt need me to "protect him".)

Most defend their comments as being useful customer "feedback", much like one might get at a focus group or something. Im not sure I buy that. Every company has access to the internet, and you dont see paid for customer surveys or focus groups going away.

Anyone in business knows the most valuable and credible feedback comes from....the cash register. Everything else is somebody's opinion, which may or may not have relevance on a larger scale. Thus really, its just noise (sorry).

Now, if Andy has specific questions or concerns and solicits peoples' views, then obviously he has to be prepared to take the good with the bad. But beyond that, Im not sure why we feel we have the right here to share our sometimes rather strongly worded views about how the man runs his business. Just by being a customer, one is not granted a license of impunity.

By no means do I mean to curb anyone's right to express themselves. Perhaps though, the most meaninful expression is through one's purchasing habits. I love BMWs, and think they cost too much. But dammit, I keep buying the things!

OK, perhaps Im going too far again. Or maybe I like a little controversy? Anyway, just my two cents worth --.

 

[Harrytheheid]

I didnt mean to sound quite so snippy in my original reply. It could have been that second glass of shiraz talking - or maybe it was just me, I get cranky at times

Regardless, I like TSB's suggestion, that it all comes back to K&C's most recent bar tab...

But just so you know, I have been a regular reader here for a while. And Im always very surprised at how much grief Andy gets -- about any number of subjects. I know its not meant maliciously or anything, but it just seems to go too far at times (admittedly, this is my unsolicited opinion. Andy certainly doesnt need me to "protect him".)

Most defend their comments as being useful customer "feedback", much like one might get at a focus group or something. Im not sure I buy that. Every company has access to the internet, and you dont see paid for customer surveys or focus groups going away.

Anyone in business knows the most valuable and credible feedback comes from....the cash register. Everything else is somebody's opinion, which may or may not have relevance on a larger scale. Thus really, its just noise (sorry).

Now, if Andy has specific questions or concerns and solicits peoples' views, then obviously he has to be prepared to take the good with the bad. But beyond that, Im not sure why we feel we have the right here to share our sometimes rather strongly worded views about how the man runs his business. Just by being a customer, one is not granted a license of impunity.

By no means do I mean to curb anyone's right to express themselves. Perhaps though, the most meaninful expression is through one's purchasing habits. I love BMWs, and think they cost too much. But dammit, I keep buying the things!

OK, perhaps Im going too far again. Or maybe I like a little controversy? Anyway, just my two cents worth --.

You make a lot of relevant points in this post Rutledge. Looking forward to more of the same.

 

[storch]

I think the original question was quite legitimate. I have wondered about the same thing often, particularly the $2.00 difference in the desert Chevy's. It is not a complaint, just curiosity. I also believe that the prices are very fair given the extremely high quality of the product. But what makes this such a pleasant hobby is that we are dealing with business people who have a passion for what they produce and care deeply about their customers. Whether it is Andy or the majority of the dealers that we deal with, they know that we are emotionally invested in our collecting activities and they appreciate that. Andy does not have to answer all of our questions, but I guess he does so because he knows that we do it out of love for the hobby and love for K&C. I would collect K&C even if the producers were awful people, but the fact that Andy is so receptive to our concerns makes collecting his products a far better experience.

So, what's the deal with the $2 difference?

Gil

 

[Canadian Samurai]

OK, perhaps Im going too far again. Or maybe I like a little controversy? Anyway, just my two cents worth --.

Welcome to the forum! I think it’s a proud tradition of new members on this forum to stir up controversy (I know I did) – so to help speed your welcome I will take you up on your argument.

But just so you know, I have been a regular reader here for a while. And Im always very surprised at how much grief Andy gets -- about any number of subjects.

I’m consistently astonished about the exact opposite - how K&C and the other manufacturers in the toy soldier industry get off so lightly when they continue to make historical inaccuracies that a little bit of diligent research would fix, along with quality control problems that make it feel like Russian Roulette every time you open a new set. In the 1/6th forums manufacturers get shredded if they make the same kinds of blunders – and because of this, we have seen continual improvement in their products. The same thing appears to happen with toy soldiers, but if more people would share their likes and dislikes, the pace of progress would surely increase.

Most defend their comments as being useful customer "feedback", much like one might get at a focus group or something. Im not sure I buy that. Every company has access to the internet, and you dont see paid for customer surveys or focus groups going away.

Why don't you ask Andy or any other toy soldier manufacturer if they pay for focus groups... I highly doubt it. Fact is, why would they bother when they'll get basically the same results as they find here - but here our opinions can be had for free.

Anyone in business knows the most valuable and credible feedback comes from....the cash register. Everything else is somebody's opinion, which may or may not have relevance on a larger scale. Thus really, its just noise (sorry).

Okay, let's say the K&C motorcycle set in question is selling poorly. Without a forum or other similar way to listen to his customers how will Andy know why that is the case? Is it because the set is overpriced? Is it because consumers aren't interested in the subject matter? Does it have accuracy or quality control issues? Is a competitor's product better? Are consumers simply maxed out in terms of what they can afford in a year? Or some other reason entirely? A cash register cannot answer any of those questions for you. It can tell you something is selling or not selling, but not why... to get at that you need to converse with your consumers using the spoken or written word, not an excel spreadsheet.

Now, if Andy has specific questions or concerns and solicits peoples' views, then obviously he has to be prepared to take the good with the bad. But beyond that, Im not sure why we feel we have the right here to share our sometimes rather strongly worded views about how the man runs his business. Just by being a customer, one is not granted a license of impunity.

What exactly would you rather have us spend our time doing on this forum? I don't see many pictures of people's collections being posted. There isn't a heavy modelling aspect to this hobby so we can't really share tips about customizing our figures. Do you think we should just be like cultists and worshippers of the Great God Andy, going on endlessly about how great K&C products are, and the only complaint we are allowed to have is that we don’t have enough money to buy all the K&C sets? Thankfully, I think this forum is much improved in this respect from a year ago, when I first started reading it.

Indeed, the fact that manufacturers are listening carefully is the primary reason I spend my time on this forum... there's a lot of other fun things I could be doing right now, but I participate here because I know my suggestions can help make toy soldiers more like I want them to be, which will lead me to purchasing more of them, a win-win situation for me and the manufacturer. If I don’t tell them what I like and what I don’t, then I have no right to complain when future sets don’t meet my expectations. Similarly, if the manufacturer ignores my opinions, they don’t get my disposable income – I have many other hobbies besides toy soldiers. Simple as that.

I clearly have a very different view about this hobby, and more broadly, business, then you do. I think your view is that businesses should be run like a dictatorship, where the little people eat the food thrown their way, and say "yes sir, may I please have another". In my view a business and its customers form a democratic, reciprocal relationship. Each helps the other get what they want. Production and consumption form the ying and the yang of our economy. If a business ignores its customers, it's surrendering a lot of potential profits in the short term, and in the long term it endangers its own existence.

 

[King & Country]

Hi Guys,

First of all, a warm welcome to Rutledge...good to have you on board.

Now, allow me a paragraph or two with “Canadian Samurai”...

First of all, I’m sorry to hear how “astonished” you are that K&C and other manufacturers “get off so lightly when they make historical inaccuracies”. I’m also “astonished” that you think none of us do enough “diligent research” or that our quality controls (or lack of them) encourage collectors to engage in “Russian Roulette” every time they open a new set.

None of us are perfect and we’re all human and I would never say that K&C has never ever made a mistake or an error. However, I would say that we get it a lot more right than wrong than our friend “Canadian Samurai” likes to suggest.

And, as for the hobby and business progressing I say, immodestly perhaps, that no other company has done more to achieve that, in the last 10 years, than K&C. And I hope and pray to continue that for many years to come.

As for “focus groups”...why should we pay for them? Every single day I receive emails...faxes...letters and phonecalls from collectors all over the world telling me what they like and dislike. I regularly talk with many K&C dealers...plus I’ve got this Forum. Put all that together and believe me I get a whole lotta feedback that’s invaluable that money could not buy. And don’t think for a minute these people believe that I’m some kind of little tin God. These folks are not backward at coming forward with what they like...and, more importantly, what they don’t like.

In conclusion, this Forum is mighty useful to me, K&C and all the other manufacturers out there who value their businesses and their customers. Constructive criticism is also always welcome and...there’s plenty of it out there. But please don’t think that any of us over here are either complacent about this hobby and business or about your hard-earned money and how you spend it.

We do our best to provide you with great products at a reasonable price and that both of us can get excited about...on a regular basis.

I don’t think this unique relationship resembles any kind of “dictatorship” I am familiar with. But then again, maybe “Canadian Samurai” knows different...

Best wishes and...happy collecting!

Andy C.

 

[Warbuff26]

Just so we are clear.....my "$2 question" was just me being silly. I laughed when I saw the difference in price because I just thought it was strange or maybe even Andy stirring the pot in his own little twisted way knowing that at some point it might be brought up on here for discussion by us crazies!

Anyway....its the blue paint...right??

 

[Louis Badolato]

I don't want to be accused of being a K&C dogmatist, because, while I happen to love K&C above all other makers, I have been one of the voices with what I hope is "constructive criticism" over the years. I am also willing to admit that on many occasions that I questioned Andy's decisions (remember my whole nobody will ever want to by polystone vehicles argument back in 1999, Andy?) I was dead wrong and Andy was dead on right.

I make no bones about the fact that I am a close friend of Andy and Gordon, and, like the rest of the members of this forum, I am a subjective collector (there is no such thing is pure "objectivity" among human beings, we all view things from our own perspective).

That being said (sort of a long winded disclaimer, sorry), I have to respectfully disagree with Canadian Samurai. Andy, Gordon and the rest of the K&C family have done more to improve the level of quality in our hobby than any other single company, hands down. Nobody, and I mean nobody was making realistic matt WWII toy soldiers when I started collecting in the early 1990's. Andy also produced realistic vehicles, aircraft and diorama materials when none of the other major toy soldier companies did so. He introduced the polystone vehicle (over my strenuous objections), and created the market for matt figures with matching vehicles and diorama materials that directly resulted in the launch of the other fine producers of these items today, like Honour Bound and Figarti. On every occasion that a group of collectors made a suggestion or a complaint to K&C about a possible improvement or perceived error (remember the track and clear window issues), and on every occasion that his competition made improvements or innovations, K&C rose to the challenge.

Andy is open to criticism, and has always been willing to make changes and improvements. I know that he makes an effort to be as accurate as possible, as I have been with him on his many trips to book sellers to obtain the necessary documentation. Every time he comes to Chicago or New York he leaves with a bunch of books on the vehicles, aircraft, uniforms and battles of the eras he addresses. At the symposium in March, he sat down with several members of this forum (myself included) and went through a book depicting photographs and drawings of various actual FW190's, allowing us to assist him in choosing the two he would produce (my choices didn't make the cut). He makes mistakes sometimes (he's only human), but they are definitely not for want of trying.

 

[jazzeum]

I was going to post on this topic but Andy and Louis beat me to it and I'm in full agreement with what they've both said. As with Louis, I'm a K & C loyalist but Andy is always trying to make the product better. Not only have I seen Andy buy this or that book at the shows I've attended with him but I've also seen him study other manufacturers work (not just in his scale) to see how he can make his better or what he may be doing right or wrong.