US/Israel Launches Op Epic Fury Against Iran (4 Viewers)

Waging a war in the middle east and how this has totally disrupted international supply chains for the life blood of the worldwide economy, gas and oil, was a huge overreach by Trump, he's tanking the worldwide and US economy with all of this. EVERYTHING in the US is getting more expensive by the day; how many times does a sitting president in this country not get it through his cast iron head that the #1 concern of every Tom, Dick and Harry is the economy and what it costs for gas, groceries and utilities, FEW care about how Iran is a threat to the US, it does not register with the average American, period, full stop.

Biden sank the Democrat party with his energy policy and how gas hit 5.00 a gallon, which caused prices for utilities, groceries and most consumer goods to skyrocket, Trump is doing the same thing to the Republican party, how long will it take to restock our oil reserve, bring the prices down and stabilize the stock market, till the end of the year? That is too late, the clock will strike midnight in November, that's all she wrote.

Not to mention as you pointed out; anyone who thinks Russia and China is not aiding Iran is completely out to lunch, of course they are, 1000% they are, right under our noses.

At Easter dinner today, my friends 13 year old son said to me "I don't understand how the US could start a war and not make priority #1 keeping the strait of Hormuz open".............again; this from a fvcking 13 year old kid, how Trump did not understand this is beyond my comprehension.

And his neverending ultimatums are getting tiresome...............Iran has until Tuesday morning US time to open the strait of Hormuz "or else"........."or else" what? He's going to bomb their electric power plants and water decontamination plants.................yeah, that's a war crime, imagine no water or electricity for the whole country............way to win hearts and minds, it will turn the whole country against the US.

As someone stated, he's painting the floor of a room and has painted himself into a corner, this is not going to end well.
Trump's doing a lot of things our greatest generation did. They made many more sacrifices than we have. We have become too soft. I don't like higher prices either but I wouldn't like nuclear missiles coming over here either.
Mark
 
If Iran actually does have a nuclear weapon or can develop one anytime in the future…you can rest assured that if they use it…Israel has a command group in a bunker…deep… deep…deep underground somewhere…that will destroy Iran with a nuclear weapon once Iran launches-the first nuclear missile out…if Iran launches a nuclear weapon, it is the end of their civilization for real…and I’m sure Iran knows this…I truly believe this… and if Israel doesn’t fire the first retaliation…I’m sure the USA will…
 
Chuck Schumer on Obama's Iran nuclear deal. Sounds a lot like Trump.

"Every several years or so a legislator is called upon to cast a momentous vote in which the stakes are high and both sides of the issue are vociferous in their views.

Over the years, I have learned that the best way to treat such decisions is to study the issue carefully, hear the full, unfiltered explanation of those for and against, and then, without regard to pressure, politics or party, make a decision solely based on the merits.

I have spent the last three weeks doing just that: carefully studying the Joint Comprehensive Plan of Action, reading and re-reading the agreement and its annexes, questioning dozens of proponents and opponents, and seeking answers to questions that go beyond the text of the agreement but will have real consequences that must be considered.

Advocates on both sides have strong cases for their point of view that cannot simply be dismissed. This has made evaluating the agreement a difficult and deliberate endeavor, and after deep study, careful thought and considerable soul-searching, I have decided I must oppose the agreement and will vote yes on a motion of disapproval.

While we have come to different conclusions, I give tremendous credit to President Obama for his work on this issue. The President, Secretary Kerry and their team have spent painstaking months and years pushing Iran to come to an agreement. Iran would not have come to the table without the President’s persistent efforts to convince the Europeans, the Russians, and the Chinese to join in the sanctions. In addition, it was the President’s far-sighted focus that led our nation to accelerate development of the Massive Ordinance Penetrator (MOP), the best military deterrent and antidote to a nuclear Iran. So whichever side one comes down on in this agreement, all fair-minded Americans should acknowledge the President’s strong achievements in combatting and containing Iran.

In making my decision, I examined this deal in three parts: nuclear restrictions on Iran in the first ten years, nuclear restrictions on Iran after ten years, and non-nuclear components and consequences of a deal. In each case I have asked: are we better off with the agreement or without it?

In the first ten years of the deal, there are serious weaknesses in the agreement. First, inspections are not “anywhere, anytime”; the 24-day delay before we can inspect is troubling. While inspectors would likely be able to detect radioactive isotopes at a site after 24 days, that delay would enable Iran to escape detection of any illicit building and improving of possible military dimensions (PMD) – the tools that go into building a bomb but don’t emit radioactivity.

Furthermore, even when we detect radioactivity at a site where Iran is illicitly advancing its bomb-making capability, the 24-day delay would hinder our ability to determine precisely what was being done at that site.

Even more troubling is the fact that the U.S. cannot demand inspections unilaterally. By requiring the majority of the 8-member Joint Commission, and assuming that China, Russia, and Iran will not cooperate, inspections would require the votes of all three European members of the P5+1 as well as the EU representative. It is reasonable to fear that, once the Europeans become entangled in lucrative economic relations with Iran, they may well be inclined not to rock the boat by voting to allow inspections.

Additionally, the “snapback” provisions in the agreement seem cumbersome and difficult to use. While the U.S. could unilaterally cause snapback of all sanctions, there will be instances where it would be more appropriate to snapback some but not all of the sanctions, because the violation is significant but not severe. A partial snapback of multilateral sanctions could be difficult to obtain, because the U.S. would require the cooperation of other nations. If the U.S. insists on snapback of all the provisions, which it can do unilaterally, and the Europeans, Russians, or Chinese feel that is too severe a punishment, they may not comply.

Those who argue for the agreement say it is better to have an imperfect deal than to have nothing; that without the agreement, there would be no inspections, no snapback. When you consider only this portion of the deal – nuclear restrictions for the first ten years – that line of thinking is plausible, but even for this part of the agreement, the weaknesses mentioned above make this argument less compelling.

Second, we must evaluate how this deal would restrict Iran’s nuclear development after ten years.

Supporters argue that after ten years, a future President would be in no weaker a position than we are today to prevent Iran from racing to the bomb. That argument discounts the current sanctions regime. After fifteen years of relief from sanctions, Iran would be stronger financially and better able to advance a robust nuclear program. Even more importantly, the agreement would allow Iran, after ten to fifteen years, to be a nuclear threshold state with the blessing of the world community. Iran would have a green light to be as close, if not closer to possessing a nuclear weapon than it is today. And the ability to thwart Iran if it is intent on becoming a nuclear power would have less moral and economic force.

If Iran’s true intent is to get a nuclear weapon, under this agreement, it must simply exercise patience. After ten years, it can be very close to achieving that goal, and, unlike its current unsanctioned pursuit of a nuclear weapon, Iran’s nuclear program will be codified in an agreement signed by the United States and other nations. To me, after ten years, if Iran is the same nation as it is today, we will be worse off with this agreement than without it.

In addition, we must consider the non-nuclear elements of the agreement. This aspect of the deal gives me the most pause. For years, Iran has used military force and terrorism to expand its influence in the Middle East, actively supporting military or terrorist actions in Israel, Syria, Lebanon, Yemen, Iraq, and Gaza. That is why the U.S. has labeled Iran as one of only three nations in the world who are “state sponsors of terrorism.” Under this agreement, Iran would receive at least $50 billion dollars in the near future and would undoubtedly use some of that money to redouble its efforts to create even more trouble in the Middle East, and, perhaps, beyond.

To reduce the pain of sanctions, the Supreme Leader had to lean left and bend to the moderates in his country. It seems logical that to counterbalance, he will lean right and give the Iranian Revolutionary Guard (IRGC) and the hardliners resources so that they can pursue their number one goal: strengthening Iran’s armed forces and pursuing even more harmful military and terrorist actions.

Finally, the hardliners can use the freed-up funds to build an ICBM on their own as soon as sanctions are lifted (and then augment their ICBM capabilities in 8 years after the ban on importing ballistic weaponry is lifted), threatening the United States. Restrictions should have been put in place limiting how Iran could use its new resources.

When it comes to the non-nuclear aspects of the deal, I think there is a strong case that we are better off without an agreement than with one.

Using the proponents’ overall standard – which is not whether the agreement is ideal, but whether we are better with or without it – it seems to me, when it comes to the nuclear aspects of the agreement within ten years, we might be slightly better off with it. However, when it comes to the nuclear aspects after ten years and the non-nuclear aspects, we would be better off without it.

Ultimately, in my view, whether one supports or opposes the resolution of disapproval depends on how one thinks Iran will behave under this agreement.

If one thinks Iran will moderate, that contact with the West and a decrease in economic and political isolation will soften Iran’s hardline positions, one should approve the agreement. After all, a moderate Iran is less likely to exploit holes in the inspection and sanctions regime, is less likely to seek to become a threshold nuclear power after ten years, and is more likely to use its newfound resources for domestic growth, not international adventurism.

But if one feels that Iranian leaders will not moderate and their unstated but very real goal is to get relief from the onerous sanctions, while still retaining their nuclear ambitions and their ability to increase belligerent activities in the Middle East and elsewhere, then one should conclude that it would be better not to approve this agreement.

Admittedly, no one can tell with certainty which way Iran will go. It is true that Iran has a large number of people who want their government to decrease its isolation from the world and focus on economic advancement at home. But it is also true that this desire has been evident in Iran for thirty-five years, yet the Iranian leaders have held a tight and undiminished grip on Iran, successfully maintaining their brutal, theocratic dictatorship with little threat. Who’s to say this dictatorship will not prevail for another ten, twenty, or thirty years?

To me, the very real risk that Iran will not moderate and will, instead, use the agreement to pursue its nefarious goals is too great.

Therefore, I will vote to disapprove the agreement, not because I believe war is a viable or desirable option, nor to challenge the path of diplomacy. It is because I believe Iran will not change, and under this agreement it will be able to achieve its dual goals of eliminating sanctions while ultimately retaining its nuclear and non-nuclear power. Better to keep U.S. sanctions in place, strengthen them, enforce secondary sanctions on other nations, and pursue the hard-trodden path of diplomacy once more, difficult as it may be.

For all of these reasons, I believe the vote to disapprove is the right one."
 
If Iran actually does have a nuclear weapon or can develop one anytime in the future…you can rest assured that if they use it…Israel has a command group in a bunker…deep… deep…deep underground somewhere…that will destroy Iran with a nuclear weapon once Iran launches-the first nuclear missile out…if Iran launches a nuclear weapon, it is the end of their civilization for real…and I’m sure Iran knows this…I truly believe this… and if Israel doesn’t fire the first retaliation…I’m sure the USA will…
Iran does not care about what happens AFTER they strike Israel with a nuke anymore than a suicide bomber cares what happens after he blows himself up and kills as many innocents as possible.
 
Iran does not care about what happens AFTER they strike Israel with a nuke anymore than a suicide bomber cares what happens after he blows himself up and kills as many innocents as possible.
That is correct. They don't care what happens to their own people or they wouldn't have murdered thousands of them. Imagine a strategy based on the hope that fanatics who have already vowed to destroy Israel and the US won't do it. They will suddenly become reasonable. Not very reassuring.
 
Iran does not care about what happens AFTER they strike Israel with a nuke anymore than a suicide bomber cares what happens after he blows himself up and kills as many innocents as possible.
Jason...yea...

I'm not comparing one single suicide bomber willing to go to an afterlife in Islamic heaven with 72 virgins fair skinned virgins...to the ENTIRE COUNTRY of Iran...

I'm talking about the ENTIRE COUNTRY of Iran being destroyed by a retaliatory nuclear attack...

I really don't think they would sacrifice their ENTIRE COUNTRY (population of 93 million) for martyrdom...

I'm not just talking about whether or not they care about their own people...I'm talking about EVERYBODY in Iran...including the leaders...
 
Jason...yea...

I'm not comparing one single suicide bomber willing to go to an afterlife in Islamic heaven with 72 virgins fair skinned virgins...to the ENTIRE COUNTRY of Iran...

I'm talking about the ENTIRE COUNTRY of Iran being destroyed by a retaliatory nuclear attack...

I really don't think they would sacrifice their ENTIRE COUNTRY (population of 93 million) for martyrdom...

I'm not just talking about whether or not they care about their own people...I'm talking about EVERYBODY in Iran...including the leaders...
We don't have to guess about Iran's mindset. The US is threatening to take them back to the stone age and that is having no impact. They are fanatics. Fanatics do not rely on reason and logic to make decisions. They are willing to go down with the ship. They may even desire to do so. Iran has made no secret of its intent to destroy Israel and the US. If they can cause worldwide disruption of the straits with a few drones, imagine the disruption Iran will cause if they get a nuclear weapon. That cannot be allowed to happen.
 
If Iran actually does have a nuclear weapon or can develop one anytime in the future…you can rest assured that if they use it…Israel has a command group in a bunker…deep… deep…deep underground somewhere…that will destroy Iran with a nuclear weapon once Iran launches-the first nuclear missile out…if Iran launches a nuclear weapon, it is the end of their civilization for real…and I’m sure Iran knows this…I truly believe this… and if Israel doesn’t fire the first retaliation…I’m sure the USA will…
This is what I continually come back to; IF they use a nuclear weapon, that will be the end of them, period, done, finished.

IMO, their leadership does not care; they whack Israel but are wiped off the face of the earth, I don't think that bothers any of their leaders one bit.

I really feel badly for the people of Iran, or at least those who do not support the current leadership that is in place, they are the ones who will suffer.

And great, here's the headline I woke up to today; "US and Iran end ceasefire talks without agreement and blaming each other."

Wow, shocking, never thought that would be the outcome, the Iranian leadership seems like such a rational bunch of fellas.

So now Trump either calls the whole thing off or moves forward and wipes them off the face of the earth.

Your move Donald.
 
Iran does not care about what happens AFTER they strike Israel with a nuke anymore than a suicide bomber cares what happens after he blows himself up and kills as many innocents as possible.
BINGO, give this man a cigar.
 
We don't have to guess about Iran's mindset. The US is threatening to take them back to the stone age and that is having no impact. They are fanatics. Fanatics do not rely on reason and logic to make decisions. They are willing to go down with the ship. They may even desire to do so. Iran has made no secret of its intent to destroy Israel and the US. If they can cause worldwide disruption of the straits with a few drones, imagine the disruption Iran will cause if they get a nuclear weapon. That cannot be allowed to happen.
stone age and complete annihilation of their own country and every single one of their leaders and people...
not gonna happen...
go down with the ship...the entire country...93 million people...I don't think so...
 
Jason...yea...

I'm not comparing one single suicide bomber willing to go to an afterlife in Islamic heaven with 72 virgins fair skinned virgins...to the ENTIRE COUNTRY of Iran...

I'm talking about the ENTIRE COUNTRY of Iran being destroyed by a retaliatory nuclear attack...

I really don't think they would sacrifice their ENTIRE COUNTRY (population of 93 million) for martyrdom...

I'm not just talking about whether or not they care about their own people...I'm talking about EVERYBODY in Iran...including the leaders...
I have to agree with Mike; there is a big difference between one lonely bomber and a country. The theory of mutually assured destruction is what kept the US and the USSR from destroying each other with nuclear weapons and it will probably work with these two combatants. Anything else is fair game though.
 
Their leaders will run to another country like rich Palestinians do. The religion is all that counts, not the people. They will use it.
Mark
 
Seems the plan is to blockade the strait and see how that goes.
For sure there's going to be disagreements with all the different countries wanting access and stopping ships is hoing to get backs up.
No doubt the Iranians will be mixing it along with the msm propaganda.

It will be a problem for Iran importing food.
As we know, Iran had issues growing food last year due to the drastic reduction in their aquifers and that big lake, having been overused, that what's left, now has a high salt level, and causing issues as well.
Which when put all these things together they certainly are going to have problems with the civil population In the coming months.

Better a blockade then putting more lives in danger, but something that requires time, and since Iran has a land route all the way to China with the two way traffic of oil one way and of arms already flowing so unlikely to ultimately work, especially when President Trump has only a finite amount of time politically.

So back to a military solution ?
 
I was not in favor of starting this war but right now it seems to have left Iran in a more favorable situation vis a vis the Strait than it was before. Someone said, maybe Richard Haas, you broke it, you own it, so maybe we need to go full in now. I’m not saying yes for sure but this isn’t a good situation as it presently exists.
 
I was not in favor of starting this war but right now it seems to have left Iran in a more favorable situation vis a vis the Strait than it was before. Someone said, maybe Richard Haas, you broke it, you own it, so maybe we need to go full in now. I’m not saying yes for sure but this isn’t a good situation as it presently exists.
No, it's not a good situation, it's a beyond terrible situation, no exit ramp at all, to go "full in" will be long, bloody and costly.

I can't see it.

What a mess.
 
stone age and complete annihilation of their own country and every single one of their leaders and people...
not gonna happen...
go down with the ship...the entire country...93 million people...I don't think so...
We have already wiped their leadership out. They don't care. They just killed 40k of their own people. We are not dealing with rational people. Things would never have gotten to this point if they were capable of acting with reason and logic. Instead they are fanatics.
 
No, it's not a good situation, it's a beyond terrible situation, no exit ramp at all, to go "full in" will be long, bloody and costly.

I can't see it.

What a mess.
Honestly, even though I wrote it, I’m not sure what I mean by “full in.”
 

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