“German Tank Turret Numbers” (1 Viewer)

[King & Country]

Hi Guys,

One of our number (no pun intended) wonders about the accuracy of “tank turret numbers” on some of our Tigers.

From my own research…the purpose of said numbers was three fold – The first number in a “3 number” designation denotes the particular company in an armoured battalion. The second refers to the platoon/troop of that same company. And the third signifies the tank’s number in the platoon/troop.

So for instance…111 refers to the 1st tank of the 1st platoon/troop of the 1st Company. Another instance might be 234…the 4th tank of the 3rd Platoon/troop of the 2nd Company.

As for photographic evidence to prove “authenticity” – It would be terrific if every single German fighting vehicle had photos taken at the time to show enthusiasts decades later that they actually existed. I think most collectors can appreciate that under wartime conditions and action in the field that was not always possible. All companies can and do make educated assumptions based on what evidence is available.

Hope this helps.

Best wishes,​

Andy C.​

 

[Larry Allen]

Thanks Andy for the enlightening and concise explanation.
And I do think the "Pun was intended"

Not to stir up the same controversy on "rivet counting" AGAIN ... but I am always curious why a T-O-Y S-O-L-D-I-E-R collector needs to scrutinize each piece for an above-and-beyond level of accuracy.

Geeeee, they are TOY SOLDIERS and this is a fun hobby. Ultimate accuracy is important if you are trying to land a space craft on Mars or if you are building a medical device ... but in TOY Soldiers. I am NOT saying that a research into uniforms, vehicle design or markings isn't important to a degree, but from my 20 years collecting and selling "REAL" military antiques the only thing that was consistent was the inconsistency ... especially with late-war German manufacturing.

By the way .... the buttons on the AWI Hessian's uniforms are .00001 mm to low!!!! ---{sm4}

--- Larry

 

[binder001]

Thanks Andy for the enlightening and concise explanation.
And I do think the "Pun was intended"

Not to stir up the same controversy on "rivet counting" AGAIN ... but I am always curious why a T-O-Y S-O-L-D-I-E-R collector needs to scrutinize each piece for an above-and-beyond level of accuracy.

Geeeee, they are TOY SOLDIERS and this is a fun hobby. Ultimate accuracy is important if you are trying to land a space craft on Mars or if you are building a medical device ... but in TOY Soldiers. I am NOT saying that a research into uniforms, vehicle design or markings isn't important to a degree, but from my 20 years collecting and selling "REAL" military antiques the only thing that was consistent was the inconsistency ... especially with late-war German manufacturing.

By the way .... the buttons on the AWI Hessian's uniforms are .00001 mm to low!!!! ---{sm4}

--- Larry

On one hand you have a very legitimate viewpoint, but on the other hand when I'm paying $150-300 USD for a "model" that the manufacturer claims is "authentic" or "detailed" I feel I have every right to ask them to do their level best on trying to get it right. Everyone here knows how I tear Andy a new one over several errors in his Shermans and how I rail about the GROSS errors in CS Shermans, but I'm the customer and I want someone to do his homework. These companies sell items that claim to be "historical miniatures". They are sold as "toys" but does that mean I should let my grandson have a nice battle with my K&C tanks and figures? It fries me that some guys spend lots of bucks on the painted metal/polystone stuff but won't even condider many of the better plastics out there. It's just a "toy" isn't it?

 

[Larry Allen]

On one hand you have a very legitimate viewpoint, but on the other hand when I'm paying $150-300 USD for a "model" that the manufacturer claims is "authentic" or "detailed" I feel I have every right to ask them to do their level best on trying to get it right. Everyone here knows how I tear Andy a new one over several errors in his Shermans and how I rail about the GROSS errors in CS Shermans, but I'm the customer and I want someone to do his homework. These companies sell items that claim to be "historical miniatures". They are sold as "toys" but does that mean I should let my grandson have a nice battle with my K&C tanks and figures? It fries me that some guys spend lots of bucks on the painted metal/polystone stuff but won't even condider many of the better plastics out there. It's just a "toy" isn't it?

Good Afternoon Binder001,
I also agree that you have many legitimate points and reasonable requests of any manufacturer. Please, do not mistake my post to mean that you don't have the right to request the best that the money can buy, but that is my point.

You state that sometimes you pay $150 - $300 per item. To me (and I assume many others) that is a good chunk of change. I have to think a bit before spending that kind of money. However, when compared to the many hundreds or even thousands of dollars that the truly detailed and exquisite items cost from other manufactures I believe that the K&C's / TG's / CS's / FL's and others do an incredible job.

You use the word "authentic" and "detailed". But what is authentic? Does it have to be 100% / 95% / 90% ....to be authentic? That is where my definition of a TOY Soldier (vehicle whatever) applies. No "model" or "toy" or "historical miniature" can ever be a really authentic .....
Nor can any uniform or diorama piece be considered authentic.

Detailed? Once again, the amount of sculpting and painting that goes into these figures and vehicles is way beyond my expertise and I would dare say most on here. As before, if you want to spend $1000 - $1500 on a figure, that is possible, given some of the artists and companies available. I expect to see some at the Valley Forge show in a couple weeks. But when I compare my $40 K&C Hessian or British Fusilier to theirs I am getting a 100x better deal.

YES they are toys and that is also my point, albeit a bit pricy toys but toys none the less. (ALSO .. God forbid that your grandson should acquire them for the "Battle of Sandbox Hill").

Pardon my lack of understanding the last comment, about Plastic vs. Metal??? ^&confuse
I LOVE my plastic sets ... (mostly Civil War and Rev War era) ... but my lack of painting talent keeps them the original color.
However .. YES they are toys just like the Metal and Resin. Hummmm ... I never see the Plastic guys get their **** tails untucked over detail and accuracy.

I suppose in the long run I need to thank you for keeping Andy, John, Matt, Ken and others on there toes and forcing them to continue to design and produce the best stuff that is possible within their market space .... :salute:: :salute:: :salute::

--- Larry

 

[jazzeum]

On one hand you have a very legitimate viewpoint, but on the other hand when I'm paying $150-300 USD for a "model" that the manufacturer claims is "authentic" or "detailed" I feel I have every right to ask them to do their level best on trying to get it right. Everyone here knows how I tear Andy a new one over several errors in his Shermans and how I rail about the GROSS errors in CS Shermans, but I'm the customer and I want someone to do his homework.

Based on what Andy said above, sounds like he's trying to do his level best.

Brad

 

[Phantom Warrior]

There are errors, errors copied from earlier manufactured models, really foolish errors, errors of omission for expediency, deliberate errors for appearance, and errors created by new historical information turned up years after the model was built. In this thread, Andy chose death by turret number of German tanks. They are the most orderly and straight forward, but try researching some and see how difficult it can get. A few months ago, Barneywomble asked some numbering and insignia questions on some models and for fun, I helped him through the twists and turns. A few of the model insignia/numbering accuracy was postedd on several threads on this form.

Even just for turret numbers, they could vary in style and colour from unit to unit, be changed to fool the enemy, be specifically done for a single campaign or a change of company position within a battalion. As such, turret numbers are time specific and location specific and can be difficult and time consuming to figure out. And that is for the well documented Germans. The US are a bit more difficult, the british more difficult again and no one understands the Russian or the French. ^&grin

Terry

 

[wayne556517]

There are errors, errors copied from earlier manufactured models, really foolish errors, errors of omission for expediency, deliberate errors for appearance, and errors created by new historical information turned up years after the model was built. In this thread, Andy chose death by turret number of German tanks. They are the most orderly and straight forward, but try researching some and see how difficult it can get. A few months ago, Barneywomble asked some numbering and insignia questions on some models and for fun, I helped him through the twists and turns. A few of the model insignia/numbering accuracy was postedd on several threads on this form.

Even just for turret numbers, they could vary in style and colour from unit to unit, be changed to fool the enemy, be specifically done for a single campaign or a change of company position within a battalion. As such, turret numbers are time specific and location specific and can be difficult and time consuming to figure out. And that is for the well documented Germans. The US are a bit more difficult, the british more difficult again and no one understands the Russian or the French. ^&grin

Terry

So lets just be flexible mate.

 

[Patton]

May I humbly point out that my German tank reference is the excellent books written by Bruce Culver published by Squadron/ Signal.

Panzer Colours: deals with camouflage of the German Panzer Forces 1939-1945

Panzer Colours II: markings of the German Army Panzer Forces 1939-1945

Panzer Colours III: Insignia/unit markings of the German Panzer Forces 1939-1945.

A4 size with pasteboard cover.

 

[Phantom Warrior]

My meaning is that German tank turret numbers are well defined in theory but are frequently changed in the field. That is especially true for Tiger battalions and companies which often were assigned temporarily to Panzer Divisions as needed. Sometimes they kept their own numbers like 133. Sometimes they were added as the 7th or 8th company of the Battalion and temporarily had turret numbers beginning with 7 or 8. Sometime no turret numbers were used, or single digit or 2 digit numbers. In large battalions with 10 or more companies they could have a 4 digit number. Another common mistake is a unit having a Tiger II with the same turret number as a Tiger I had in the same unit before it was refitted. Getting turret numbers correct can be difficult and prone to error.

Terry

 

[Rutledge]

Actually, I would submit these "figures" are more miniature pieces of ART, rather than toy soldiers. As was pointed out above, (almost) no one plays with them as toys. Toys is a misnomer. These miniatures are displayed as "art" to be admired and appreciated as any other - here for their marvelous details and/or "that's cool" factor.

Art, as we know, allows interpretation. In fact, it requires it. A copy is never the same as the real thing. Never. Photographers purposely use light and other techniques to alter the "reality" of their work. Some even do that with diorama photos right here on TFTF. {eek3}

Artists do what they do, and the world either likes it or doesn't. Based on the good success KC and others have had selling their "art", I'd say the world mostly likes it.

If Andy were not an artist at his core I doubt KC would exist today. The drawings he makes of each figure are proof of his artistic talent. I myself have zero ability in that dept.

So instead of moaning about details that less than 1% of 1% of 1% of 1% in the world care about! I'd be grateful the whole industry is in operation at all - not to mention the robust state of affairs it finds itself in. The latter is surely because of the high quality of the "art", drawing new folks in. Furthermore, there is clearly the need to constantly improve and innovate, the result of a highly competitive industry.
Suggesting that the manufacturers are prone to careless or unthoughtful mistakes I think is unfair. They all have their own style, and each one does very good work. The few true mistakes that do happen, like the upside down chevrons on the FL US paratroops, are because there are human beings at the controls. But yet, no one will get cancer or die in a fiery crash because of an error made in the production of miniature art. Its hard for me to understand how very rare minor flaws are worth getting worked up about. Throw in "artistic license" and really, it's all good.