105th Ligne Help Needed! (5 Viewers)

[Mister Dave]

Looking for advice and source info. on appearance of French 105th Ligne infantry at Waterloo. Thanks.

MD

 

[Leadmen]

The Osprey Campaign book on Waterloo has some information. Here is what I have from my resources.

The 105th Line was part of Marshall d'Erlon's I Corps of the Army of the North. The 105th was commanded by Bourgeois. Marshall d'Erlon's Corps would open the first main attack against the British line.

The corps had the 1st Division with the 28-54-55-and 105 line Infantry. Also, there was a 2nd, 3rd, 4th Line Infantry Divisions in the Corps along with 1st Cavalry, 5 foot artillery and 1 horse artillery Divisions.

The main assault against the British Line began at 1:30 pm when d' Erlon's Corp was ordered to attack. The Corp was densly packed to deploy and manoeuver. They marched with two divisions in Columns of 200 files, 27 deep.when they encountered Picton's veterans on the ridge they were halted by heavy fire and allied artillery. Picton would be killed in this battle.

The assault ground to a halt and was attacked by the British Heavy cavalry under Uxbridge. All the French Divisions were now shambles except one Division and two eagles captured. The Corps lost 5,000 men or 30% of the Corps.

 

[Mister Dave]

Thanks John. Also, really looking for some good information on the uniform appearance of the 105th at Waterloo.

Thanks again.
MD

 

[Leadmen]

The 105th was one of the two regiments that lost their"Eagle". Ewart and Corporal Stiles of the 1st Dragoons captured the eagles and were both commissioned for their bravery.

The uniforms are confusing. The infantry were poorly equipped and some wore greatcoats with shako's and civilian clothes underneath. They had belts and muskets, with dark blue shoulder straps piped in red. Grenadiers wore red epaulettes and other line units like Voltigeurs or line infantry wore yellow or green epaulettes.Plumes were red for Grenadiers,yellow or green for Voltigeurs and fusiliers wore dark green, sky blue, yellow or violet plumes.Legwear was of a great variety. Breeches and gaiters were worn.Gretcoats were grey, brown or drab.Blue uniforms were the standard color.
Officers wore a double breasted 'habit vest' or the single breasted 'surtout'. the former had white lapels with red facings. Epaulettes were gold lace.Turnbacks on the blue coat bore the crowned letter 'N' with grenades for Grenadiers and horns for Voltiguers ( these were scarlet and yellow).Officer shakos were gold laced but usually covered in oilskin while on campaign.Trousers were blue or grey, or breeches and knee-boots.Gorgets were worn by officers.

 

[Mister Dave]

Thanks again, John.

Is the cut-away short front jacket showing a vest underneath still in use in 1815 for Line regiments or was that obsolete and replaced with a full front tunic type garment by then? Also for the leg-wear, were knee high gaiters still being worn at this time or were those also obsolete?

MD

 

[Spitfrnd]

According to this seemingly informative website on Napoleonic Uniforms
http://www.napolun.com/mirror/napol...oleonic_uniforms.html#napoleonicuniformsintro
New uniform regulations were issued in 1812, commonly referred to as the Bardin Regulations (Colonel Bardin's 'Regulations in the Fitting out of Soldiers of the French Army', 1812.) made some changes in French uniforms for all but the Old and Middle Guard.

The new infantry uniform included two major changes :
- shorter black gaiters for all infantry (just under the knee) replaced the white long or black gaiters for line infantry and the short boots for light infantry.
- the jacket had shorter coattail, its lapels were piped red and extended to the waist, covering the previously exposed waist coat

 

[Scott]

A possibility for uniforms is to eliminate any items not yet in existence (Duh!) and any items just mentioned in regulations but too soon to be produced. Take items already in existence from several years before and add wear and tear to them. Unless you have a documented source for that unit or an eye witness account, you can portray them how you wish, based on the factors above. Add items of civilian dress and fatigue wear and mud.

This kind of research works with portraying Santa Anna's army. It also work for the Confederates when no written or photographic source exists.

 

[Mister Dave]

Thanks for the additional information, Gents. Just looking for clarification on appropriate attire for a gloss diorama I am thinking of putting together over the course of the next year or so.

And Bill, thanks for the excellent link you've posted.....very helpful indeed.

MD

 

[maloyalo]

Just some observations, based on what I have read, to add to the above. I though Scott's version pretty accurate.

The Grande Armee in general was much more out then in regulation uniforms at Waterloo.

The mobilization...well to some degree actual 'creation' of units was very hastily done, in the 'Hundred Days'.

The Imperiale Garde even, wasn't even close to all being in regulation. For instance, the 3rd & 4th Grenadiers and Chasseurs a Pied, were mainly in Line uniforms and had their old shakos.

The eyewitness accounts of line infantry that come to my mind, often mention the infantry at Waterloo being in greatcoats, which I think were actually mostly a beige color. The white crossbelts would have to be worn over these. Because of the storm and rain on the 17th, it was a cold and chilly morning and mud was in widespread evidence on the soldiers.

I have been there twice at the same time of year and one was a perfect replay of storm and heavy rain the day and night before. By noon it was rather warm and increasingly so as the day wore on and I have always thought they had to be some hot and sweaty French infantry that afternoon if they were still in greatcoats. But maybe the pre-global warming temps were low on their day. Well now. " But Sire! To move my cannon, I must have at least 120 million hours to allow sufficient time for the ground to dry" D).

The uniforms underneath the coats (probably incomplete) would have been (I think) 1813-14 era. When they say the French Army was mainly veterans at Waterloo, it was not all old-timers, but mainly the recruits of 1813-14, the 'Maria Louises' (spelling?). Any uniforms issued during the restoration would also have been a major component. The eagle and standard were new of course. They very likely had smaller red flags/banners, but I forget if this was for battalions or companies. One was mentioned on the ground at Waterloo in the area the 105th had been.

An odd thing then. Some at least, of the French line infantry regiments would not have appeared 'blue' at all, but more a faded faintly yellowish mass, with white lines. Like a regiment of spys in trenchcoats.

 

[fishead19690]

I,ve read stories stories where no 2 men in some units had the same uniforms and even the guard units didn,t have matching uniforms.
The 1815 army was made up of a lot of veteran troops from spain, various garrison troops, returned prisoners and the 1813-14 war and earlier veterans along with new recruits also.
I would think that a lot of these guys still had old uniforms from previous service that they wore so any of the 1812-14 uniforms would work fine for waterloo and I,m sure they must have had some older surplus uniforms still in stock for new troops.
I,m sure there were a lot of different styles of uniforms for so many accounts how un-uniform the the 1815 army looked!
Here are a few plates of 1815 era uniforms, I don,t have a plate of the 105th but I do have one of the 45th(the other unit that also lost its standard to the british cavalry charge).

 

[Mister Dave]

Tim and Maloyalo, thanks for the additional images and insights. This has been most helpful to me, indeed.

MD

 

[Molloy]

Hi, Dave.

If you’re going for absolute realism, one other minor point to bear in mind is the shako plates sported by a lot of French infantrymen during the campaign.

During the brief Bourbon restoration of 1814-15, a good number of soldiers, either by choice or coercion, snapped off the top portion of the front-plate on their 1812 Pattern shakoes. Normally, that upper half should feature the Napoleonic eagle, but naturally, that wasn’t too politically correct in the light of a regime change in France! During the Hundred Days campaign, a relatively significant number of French soldiers would still have sported that crude alteration, as seen on the Eagle-Bearer of the 45eme in the last illustration below.

I’m not at home at the moment, but somewhere on the shelf there’s a book called Waterloo Relics which includes a photograph of a surviving French grenadier’s shako featuring the broken plate – if I remember correctly the headgear was recovered in the environs of Hougoumont. I’ll see if I can get a scan or a link to that.

It’s only speculation, but I’d be curious as to whether those Restoration-era alterations extended to other uniform items like the Imperial “N” that was often seen on cartridge boxes?

All the best,

Molloy.

 

[Mister Dave]

Thanks Molloy, I wondered about those missing eagle bits.

MD

 

[Scott]

Is this what we are seeing in this painting? The drummer pulling out his eagle from the knapsack?

 

[Molloy]

Scott: Hmm... could well be; I've seen that painting before, but now I look at it again, it does rather appear as if the soldier in the foreground is pulling the eagle out from a safe stowage place in his pack.

The removal of overt Napoleonic insignia from French uniforms during the First Restoration is documented, however, I've come across a number of similar stories in the same vein - as to how many are simply apocryphal or otherwise is anyone’s guess.

For example, the one about units of the Imperial Guard burning their colours, and crumbling the ashes into wine to be drunk - rather than surrender them – seems to crop up fairly often. I’ve heard it both in reference to the 1814 Restoration, and to the immediate post-Waterloo period. Striking story, but I’m not sure if there’s any real basis to it.

MD: No worries at all, mate!

I’ve had another look at that book I mentioned. Unfortunately, I can’t get the photograph up here and now, but it does very clearly show a shako belonging to a grenadier of the 3ème de Ligne which features the eagle’s head decapitated. Interestingly, another piece shown is the helmet of a French cavalry officer in the 1er Chasseurs à Cheval, which has undergone the same process, but in reverse. The Royalist inscription Regiment du Roi has been bluntly hammered out to read Regiment du I.

The book – by the by- is Waterloo Relics, by Gilles Bernard and Gerard Lachaux. Highly recommended if you don’t already have it. It’s a translation from French, so the text is frequently a little clunky, but it's still worth every penny for the colour photographs of surviving Waterloo artifacts.

Cheers,

Molloy.

 

[fishead19690]

I know a lot of the french troops kept their tri-color (red, white, blue) cockades tucked up under their hats and some refused to remove them after the return of the Bourbon king to power. The tri-color was a symbol of french revolution which removed the Bourbons from power and was to be removed from all troops along with all other napoleonic symbols.