An Observation (Confederate Battle Flags) (1 Viewer)

[Lo1863]

I have reposted this in this thread because I think it will fit in better here instead of under "General Matte."

Over the years of going to different museums and looking at pictures of the different Battle Flags of the Confederacy, I have made an observation. First off, I know there was no "right" way to make flags back then and all were different so please don't jump onto me about that. Anyway it seems to me that the stars on most of the battle flags were not spaced out to cover the entire blue cross of Saint Andrew's. Observe a few examples below:
1. 13th Alabama http://www.archives.alabama.gov/refe...gs/029030.html
2. 6th Alabama http://www.archives.alabama.gov/referenc/flags/024.html
3. 10th Virginia http://www.antiquetrader.com/antique...storic_auction
4. 22nd North Carolina http://22nccompanyb.org/
5. 49th Georgia http://www.flickr.com/photos/jstephenconn/3879420779/

Now these are just a few examples I have posted here as there are MANY that can be found. So, what does this have to do with toy soldiers? Well it seems to me that many producers of ACW have overlooked this aspect with their figures when it comes to flags. I am not trying to put in any plugs but the only one that I can see that has got it right with the spacing of the stars has been First Legion (13th AL and 55th NC). Flags are one of the first things I notice as a collector and a civil war buff. This lack of attention (for lack of a better word) has also been seen in many of the reenacting units as well. Do a simple search and you will see most of the flags produced today have the stars spaced to cover the entire blue area.

I was just wondering if anyone else has noticed this and wanted to open up a FRIENDLY discussion among my fellow ACW nuts. So...have at it!

 

[Scott]

I've seen a few at the Museum of the Confederacy and there IS/WAS no standard for CS flags and many exceptions for United States Flags as well. Flags were hand sewn and stories of presentation flags from patriotic groups abound.

A modeller can have a ball making the many CS state variations just by using the "paint brush" feature on the computer and the printer.


A Union example of odd non regulation flags was the 5th Rhode Island battalion at New Berne in 1862. The unit was two small at only 5 companies for a set of colors so an officer took a small "bunting flag" he had used while recruiting an tied it to a stick. The 5th attacked without the flag as it was handed over to the Vivandiere Kady Brownell who was ordered to stay behind. That tiny flag is in the corner of a flag display at the Rhode Island State House. Kady and the flag stories were of course later exaggerated.

 

[UKReb]

The Confederate Battle flag evolved out of the confusion of all three Confederate National Flag designs appearing to be too like the United States colours especially during the heat of battle. A prime example was Brigade Commander Jubal Early's men firing on other Confederate regiments at First Manassas believing the flags they were flying to be Yankee colours. Joe Johnston ordered each regiment to fly State flags but the same thing happened as using another example the Virginia State Flag having a dark blue background- again was thought to be Yankee regiments especially if the flags were lying limp on their staffs.

A Confederate Congressman-whose name now escapes me-sent a flag design to General Beauregard-which the Congessman had designed for the First Confederate National Flag but had been rejected twice by Congress. This was The Blue Andrew Cross (Saltire) on a red background with white or argent (silver) stars. Beauregard took the design to Johnston and both decided it would be an ideal design for the Confederacy's Field/Battle flag and reduce all the confusion on the battlefield. The first examples were made by the Cary sisters of Richmond and eventually sent to the Richmond Clothing Depot for standard/machine sewn manufacture. The first Infantry battle flags were 48" square; artillery versions were 36" square and cavalry banners were 30" square. The blue crosses were 8" wide and 12 white stars were 4.5" in diameter set 8" apart from the centre of the cross. Eventually the thirteenth star was added to the centre of the cross.

Now to come to your question on whether our ACW figures flags are correct or incorrect the answer is they both are correct. This was due entirely to conserve fabric as the war progressed. The bunting necessary for the design became more scarce in the South so the flags went from square to rectangular back to square the cross was reduced to 5" wide then 3" wide and the stars were stitched 9.5" and even 10" apart which obviously led to the stars appearing closer to the end of the blue cross. In total between 1862 and 1865 there were eight variations of the Army of Northern Virginia battle flags manufactured officially and issued to regiments.

Finally as Scott as referred to in his post various home made flags were also flown by Reb regiments for when many of the official banners were worn out by much use in the field and replacements were not immediately available the Reb colour detail would cut out the stars (the most difficult to imitate) from their old flag and stitch them on their home made red background/blue cross version. And heaven knows where those stitched on stars ended up on these particular banners.

Reb

 

[jazzeum]

I don't if this is what you are looking for, but please see the following article that appeared in the New York Times' Disunion series, The Flags of the Confederacy, http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/07/29/the-southern-cross/#more-100679.

 

[trooper]

[May I recommend the following volumes.
Flags of the American Civil War Vol1 (Confederates by Katcher (Osprey)
Echoes of glory -arms and equipment of the Confederacy (Time Life)
Battle flags of Texans in the Confederacy Sumrall (Eakin Press)
The returned battle flags Rollins (Rank and File)
The ****ed red flags of the rebellion Rollins (Rank and File)
The flags of Civil War Alabama Dedmont (Pelican)
The flags of Civil War South Carolina Dedmont (Pelican)
The flags of Civil War North Carolina Dedmont (Pelican)
The flags of the Confederacy Cannon (Pelican)
Trooper]

 

[Scott]

There was a recent flap about the one uncovered "chesticle" of the Goddess Virtue on the Virginia state flag. The San Jacinto Texas flag had Liberty with an exposed chest. I think that in the late 1700s Virtue wore a female version of the Roman armor that was made to look like muscles. It is confused with a bare chest. Any variations on Virginia's Virtue out there for the CW era?

 

[Lo1863]

Thanks so much for all the replies! UKReb, yours was very helpful! I will for sure check out those books listed trooper.

 

[Oddball]

"First off, I know there was no "right" way to make flags back then and all were different so please don't jump onto me about that. Anyway it seems to me that the stars on most of the battle flags were not spaced out to cover the entire blue cross of Saint Andrew's. "

Well, in a friendly way, let me say that there was a "right" way to make the issue colors. However, it depends on where and when it was made. The various CS QM depots and contractors who provided more than one flag had particular styles that are repeated. For example, the Richmond QM depot made the flags for Lee's Army of Northern Virginia beginning in May 1862, and went through seven different issues, which varied in fabric, overall dimensions, bar size, star size and spacing, size and location of battle honors, unit designations and construction details. Yes, that indicates a variety, but there will be "clusters of uniformity" within brigades and divisions that recieved new or replacement flags. The pattern of flag in production at that time would be the style issued.

Obviously, we know that CS regimetal colors varied from army to army, but there was an attempt to standarize procurment, if not style. Earlier issued types survived and units retained them in some cases out of pride. As with CS uniforms, local QM depots supported the local army, so the sources of issued flags varied.

As for the Color Bearer making and sewing on replacement stars, I doubt it. Could it have happened? Sure, but unlikely, based on the battle damaged condition of many of the surviving flags, most of which were captured in combat. By 1862, flags were QM issue items. Damaged and lost colors were requitioned and replaced through the QM system. For example, the 28th NC went through four ANV pattern flags and the 38th NC had three.

Everything you probably need to know is at this site: http://www.confederate-flags.org/

This site is the result of the efforts of the best of the CS flag historians and I highly recommend it to anyone interested in the Confederate Flag.

 

[Lo1863]

"First off, I know there was no "right" way to make flags back then and all were different so please don't jump onto me about that. Anyway it seems to me that the stars on most of the battle flags were not spaced out to cover the entire blue cross of Saint Andrew's. "

Well, in a friendly way, let me say that there was a "right" way to make the issue colors. However, it depends on where and when it was made. The various CS QM depots and contractors who provided more than one flag had particular styles that are repeated. For example, the Richmond QM depot made the flags for Lee's Army of Northern Virginia beginning in May 1862, and went through seven different issues, which varied in fabric, overall dimensions, bar size, star size and spacing, size and location of battle honors, unit designations and construction details. Yes, that indicates a variety, but there will be "clusters of uniformity" within brigades and divisions that recieved new or replacement flags. The pattern of flag in production at that time would be the style issued.

Obviously, we know that CS regimetal colors varied from army to army, but there was an attempt to standarize procurment, if not style. Earlier issued types survived and units retained them in some cases out of pride. As with CS uniforms, local QM depots supported the local army, so the sources of issued flags varied.

As for the Color Bearer making and sewing on replacement stars, I doubt it. Could it have happened? Sure, but unlikely, based on the battle damaged condition of many of the surviving flags, most of which were captured in combat. By 1862, flags were QM issue items. Damaged and lost colors were requitioned and replaced through the QM system. For example, the 28th NC went through four ANV pattern flags and the 38th NC had three.

Everything you probably need to know is at this site: http://www.confederate-flags.org/

This site is the result of the efforts of the best of the CS flag historians and I highly recommend it to anyone interested in the Confederate Flag.

Thanks for the info and the great link!

 

[lancer]

Many thanks for posting that outstanding link on Confederate flags. Best thing I have seen on the subject. -- Al

 

[tullock]

"First off, I know there was no "right" way to make flags back then and all were different so please don't jump onto me about that. Anyway it seems to me that the stars on most of the battle flags were not spaced out to cover the entire blue cross of Saint Andrew's. "

Well, in a friendly way, let me say that there was a "right" way to make the issue colors. However, it depends on where and when it was made. The various CS QM depots and contractors who provided more than one flag had particular styles that are repeated. For example, the Richmond QM depot made the flags for Lee's Army of Northern Virginia beginning in May 1862, and went through seven different issues, which varied in fabric, overall dimensions, bar size, star size and spacing, size and location of battle honors, unit designations and construction details. Yes, that indicates a variety, but there will be "clusters of uniformity" within brigades and divisions that recieved new or replacement flags. The pattern of flag in production at that time would be the style issued.

Obviously, we know that CS regimetal colors varied from army to army, but there was an attempt to standarize procurment, if not style. Earlier issued types survived and units retained them in some cases out of pride. As with CS uniforms, local QM depots supported the local army, so the sources of issued flags varied.

As for the Color Bearer making and sewing on replacement stars, I doubt it. Could it have happened? Sure, but unlikely, based on the battle damaged condition of many of the surviving flags, most of which were captured in combat. By 1862, flags were QM issue items. Damaged and lost colors were requitioned and replaced through the QM system. For example, the 28th NC went through four ANV pattern flags and the 38th NC had three.

Everything you probably need to know is at this site: http://www.confederate-flags.org/

This site is the result of the efforts of the best of the CS flag historians and I highly recommend it to anyone interested in the Confederate Flag.

Totally agree.From mid 1862 ANV battleflags were made at the Richmond depot.All adhered to a set format,with slight variations as the war progressed.None were handsewn by soldiers or rectangular.Whole divisions were issued battleflags at the same time.The standard procedure was for each Regimental QM to request (via the standard no. 40 Requisition form),a new battle flag when a fresh batch became available.The AOT adhered to the same principle.but with differing styles of flags.
Certainly,some early war flags were hand sewn in the various different theatres of war,but as the war progressed mass production took over,resulting in the surviving uniform issue battleflags we see today.
Jeff

 

[Scott]

"First off, I know there was no "right" way to make flags back then and all were different so please don't jump onto me about that. Anyway it seems to me that the stars on most of the battle flags were not spaced out to cover the entire blue cross of Saint Andrew's. "

Well, in a friendly way, let me say that there was a "right" way to make the issue colors. .....

Everything you probably need to know is at this site: http://www.confederate-flags.org/

This site is the result of the efforts of the best of the CS flag historians and I highly recommend it to anyone interested in the Confederate Flag.

Thanks oddball, I retract my earlier comment about no standard.