Ancient Celts- Pride or Prejudice??? (1 Viewer)

[Currahee Chris]

One of the many things I enjoy along with understanding history is reading about the ancient celtic societies of areas like Scandanavia and the UK- Britain, Wales, Ireland and those people north of Hadrians wall

Time and again, we hear these people being described in textbooks, academia, etc as barbarians- were they really that bad??? Let's face it, the Romans were like some absurd fraternity that got murderously out of control- to the Romans, they were barbaric but the historical and archaeological record shows that Rome and other "Advanced" Societies were horrifically brutal for centuries. Why is that we just assume that since the ancient celts may have been somewhat unsophisticated by any reasonable measure, why does that mean they should be judged as barbarians??

Anyone else ever wonder about this- why does it seem like ancient celtic traditions and society are generally judged as barbaric when Rome, Greece, etc are judged somewhat less harshly. I find myself constantly fascinated when I read about the amazing seamanship and shipbuilding skills of the ancient viking cultures- just incredible!! Granted, the vikings were brutal and violent but where they any worse than any of the other socieities of their time?? I dunno- it just seems like these socities have just received such a bad shake and I think we have all just went along with it for so long that we don't sit back and say- hey, wait a minute here.

 

[theBaron]

One of the many things I enjoy along with understanding history is reading about the ancient celtic societies of areas like Scandanavia and the UK- Britain, Wales, Ireland and those people north of Hadrians wall

Time and again, we hear these people being described in textbooks, academia, etc as barbarians- were they really that bad??? Let's face it, the Romans were like some absurd fraternity that got murderously out of control- to the Romans, they were barbaric but the historical and archaeological record shows that Rome and other "Advanced" Societies were horrifically brutal for centuries. Why is that we just assume that since the ancient celts may have been somewhat unsophisticated by any reasonable measure, why does that mean they should be judged as barbarians??

Anyone else ever wonder about this- why does it seem like ancient celtic traditions and society are generally judged as barbaric when Rome, Greece, etc are judged somewhat less harshly. I find myself constantly fascinated when I read about the amazing seamanship and shipbuilding skills of the ancient viking cultures- just incredible!! Granted, the vikings were brutal and violent but where they any worse than any of the other socieities of their time?? I dunno- it just seems like these socities have just received such a bad shake and I think we have all just went along with it for so long that we don't sit back and say- hey, wait a minute here.

The victors write the history.

Though, on the whole, I'd still have to say the the Greco-Roman civilization was more advanced than the Celtic. On the one hand, marble cities, on the other, mud and wattle huts. That's a generalization, of course, and sure, the Celts and Teutons achieved some feats, but on the whole, the Mediterraneans were farther ahead.

Did it have to be that way? Perhaps not. But one factor in the Greeks and Romans favor was the city. "Civilization" comes from the same linguistic root in Latin as does "city", and it was the ability to bring large numbers of people together for common purposes, that provided them with their standard of living, the wealth to carry out projects and to provide the most material benefit for the largest number of people. Certainly geography played a role, too. The Mediterranean knew longer growing seasons than northern and western Europe, as did the Middle East. That also helped the Mediterraneans grow more food than they needed, while the Celts and Teutons had to work a little harder.

On the other hand, here in the States, I think the Celts are achieving a cultural revenge. Look at all of the Celtic festivals held around the country, and then look for any celebration of classical Greek and Roman culture. Of course, the Celtic festivals are as culturally authentic as "Hogan's Heroes" is accurate about the Germans. But everyone loves "Celtic" tribal tattoos, and plaids, and Highland games. They don't want to know about warring tribes that couldn't unite for any length of time, or people trying to eke out a living in some really hardscrabble places.

Well, as I noted above, it's the victors who write history. But to a Roman, looking out from his city to the colder regions of the north, with endless forests, barren sandy soil and heaths, and blood feuds, it surely seemed that they had achieved something that was worth defending, or even spreading to the rest of the world.

And despite the Boudiccas and Arminiuses of the north, many Celts and Teutons wanted Roman civilization. That is interesting to note. It's a similar point to that which we make today when someone runs down America. You can point to the millions who want to come here, and those who do, legally or otherwise, and ask the detractor, "If it's so bad, why do they want to come here so badly?"

Great topic, what does everyone else think?

Prost!
Brad

 

[Louis Badolato]

I think humans are all barbarians, some are just more technologically advanced barbarians than others. I would rather hang out with the average ancient Celt than Caligula, Hitler, or Osma Bin Laden.

 

[theBaron]

I think humans are all barbarians, some are just more technologically advanced barbarians than others. I would rather hang out with the average ancient Celt than Caligula, Hitler, or Osma Bin Laden.

Wow, that's a bit dark!

I'd have to disagree with you, I don't think we're all barbarians. I think we have a fallen nature, an imperfect nature, and sure, we have great capacity for evil. But for all of the brutes, there are what the Jews call righteous individuals, too.

I think you have to recognize that there is good, and there is evil. That, to me, is the real failing of many today, and the first step on the road to real barbarism. If you can't decide that something is right or wrong, but that it's all relative, the end of that road is a society (for lack of a better term) in which the strong oppress the weak.

You have to get to them when they're young, and teach them well. It's harder to teach adults not to bother their fellows.

Prosit!
Brad

 

[Louis Badolato]

Wow, that's a bit dark!

Prosit!
Brad

It's a dark world. While I certainly agree that there are good individuals, I have never come across a society that was not perfectly willing to kill for its own self interest, particularly religious or economic interests. Barbaric, every one.

 

[redhugh]

It's a dark world. While I certainly agree that there are good individuals, I have never come across a society that was not perfectly willing to kill for its own self interest, particularly religious or economic interests. Barbaric, every one.

All is not lost Louis, peaceful protests have a history of some sucess, Ghandi in India , Martin Luther King in the States, Soldiarity in Poland, the end of the apartheid era in SA, could all have got a lot more bloody and barbaric than they were, and there have been some eventual civilised end to conflicts, like Northern Ireland.

 

[UKReb]

One of the many things I enjoy along with understanding history is reading about the ancient celtic societies of areas like Scandanavia and the UK- Britain, Wales, Ireland and those people north of Hadrians wall

Time and again, we hear these people being described in textbooks, academia, etc as barbarians- were they really that bad??? Let's face it, the Romans were like some absurd fraternity that got murderously out of control- to the Romans, they were barbaric but the historical and archaeological record shows that Rome and other "Advanced" Societies were horrifically brutal for centuries. Why is that we just assume that since the ancient celts may have been somewhat unsophisticated by any reasonable measure, why does that mean they should be judged as barbarians??

Anyone else ever wonder about this- why does it seem like ancient celtic traditions and society are generally judged as barbaric when Rome, Greece, etc are judged somewhat less harshly. I find myself constantly fascinated when I read about the amazing seamanship and shipbuilding skills of the ancient viking cultures- just incredible!! Granted, the vikings were brutal and violent but where they any worse than any of the other socieities of their time?? I dunno- it just seems like these socities have just received such a bad shake and I think we have all just went along with it for so long that we don't sit back and say- hey, wait a minute here.

Interesting subject: I have just read a book on Civil War Military Tactics (well I would wouldn't I) but the last chapter is contentiously entitled by the author
"The Rebels are Barbarians".
He draws a comparison that Yankee culture was in large part transplanted English culture whereas Southern culture was Celtic-Scottish, Scotch Irish, Welsh, Cornish and Irish. He has a valid point I think as Fremantle (the English observer at Gettysburg) wrote in his diary in 1863....the slave holding States appeared to stand in about same relation to the free, as Ireland does to England, every thing appears slovenly, ill arranged, incomplete, windows do not shut, doors do not fasten, fences remain broken......

But the above was only one of the many ways in which Southerners and Northerners differed. Many antebellum observers pointed out that Southerners were more hospitable, generous, frank, wasteful, lazy, lawless and reckless than Northerners, who were in turn more reserved, thrifty, shrewd, disciplined, enterprising, acquisitive and practical.
The old South was a leisure oriented society where people favored the spoken word over the written and enjoyed their sensual pleasures-singing dancing, eating, drinking, gambling, riding, hunting, fishing and Fighting! And during those opening months of the war every Southern soldier firmly believed that those Northern pandys would not fight and each Reb could whip 25 Yanks all by himself. They were indeed an aggressive race/culture very much like the Celts.

Now bring this meandering back to Chris's question:
Celtic warfare may best be described as a continuum and not necessarily just Ancient because not only have people of Celtic culture exhibited an abiding love of combat; they have fought much the same way for two thousand years. Consider for example, similarities of three climatic battles in Celtic history: Telamon (225 B.C. against Rome) Culloden (1746 against the English) and if the Rebs are descendants of the Celts (1863 Gettysburg). In each of these battles Celtic forces used the same tactics with the same results. Boldly they attacked a strongly positioned enemy, the enemy always had better weapons and in each encounter superior military technology and defensive tactics overcame Celtic dash and courage. The Celts risked everything on the outcome of their charges and every time lost not just a battle but a war.

And in each of those battles, opposition observers wrote very similar reports "they were like wild animals, filthy, dressed in rags, barefooted and their screaming yells were enough to curdle one's blood.They were barbaric!"
Food for thought guys!
Reb

 

[Harrytheheid]

Reb,
I'm following this thread with consummate interest, but am refraining from comment for the time being.
On a lighter note, my Annual Job Appraisal conducted by my boss in December 2007 ended with the following observation, and I quote;

"He is like a wild animal, usually filthy, always dressed in rags and his screaming yells when his end-of-rotation helicopter turns up to take him home are enough to curdle one's blood. Mr Heid is basically a Barbarian".

Now I'm not going to suggest plagiarism on my bosses part, but I do intend to find out where he got that description from - once I get my hands on him.....



Cheers
H

 

[UKReb]

Reb,
I'm following this thread with consummate interest, but am refraining from comment for the time being.
On a lighter note, my Annual Job Appraisal conducted by my boss in December 2007 ended with the following observation, and I quote;

"He is like a wild animal, usually filthy, always dressed in rags and his screaming yells when his end-of-rotation helicopter turns up to take him home are enough to curdle one's blood. Mr Heid is basically a Barbarian".

Now I'm not going to suggest plagiarism on my bosses part, but I do intend to find out where he got that description from - once I get my hands on him.....



Cheers
H

H
Might be able to help you there. Your boss is my next door neighbour and we often chat history over the garden-fence
Reb

 

[Currahee Chris]

Reb,
I'm following this thread with consummate interest, but am refraining from comment for the time being.

Cheers
H

Uh oh Hey H- I didn't mean to get something started here and if I did, perhaps Shannon should intercept this thread before it goes south (no offense Reb )

Reb- love the analogies. Very interesting and enjoy the fact that you shared that with us. I thought Baron had some good and valid points as well. Admittedly, there are certain traditions from Rome, Egypt and Greece that survive today- not sure if we can say that about the ancient celts- not that their probably weren't, I am just ignorant of the facts.

I do see several similarities between ancient- Bronze age Celts and several of the "civilized" socities. Here are a few:

1.) Extensive religious backgrounds- Celtic culture had very sophisticated burial rituals, various other little rituals were performed to appease the "gods", etc. The earth mounds littered throughout the Uk is a good example of this.

2.) A culture based on trade- there is a lot of archaelogical evidence to support the fact that celtic tribes practiced inter tribal commerce. Again- look at the Vikings and their vast seafaring culture.

3.) Deep appreciation for the "Arts"- many forms of art existed among the celts- storytelling is a huge art (look at how exceptional our friends like Harry and Rob keep us entertained ). Ancient celtic woodwind instruments and dancing celebrations and feasts- all these were very important to celtic lifes.
They were also highly skilled in metalworking- look at all the exquisite gold torques and helmets and various embossings of the culture.

4.) They did have a sophisticated understanding of science- look at the engineering marvel of stonehenge and they had a deep understanding of astronomy.

I just feel like they have received a bum rap through the ages. I think if people went out to read about the ancient celts, they would see past the stereotypical "thatched huts and missing teeth" and see a really wonderful culture that is worthy of celebrating as much as the Romans, Greeks, etc.
I do draw a lot of similarities between the "prejudice" the celts have experienced and the prejudice our native americans have experienced- in academia per se- I am not getting into the other form of extremism.

My wife and I visited the Field museum in Chicago this past summer and we went to the National Museum there in Dublin back in 1999. There was nothing I saw in the Egyptian exhibits there in Chicago and the Celt exhibits in Dublin (or any of the readings I have endeavored upon since) that led me to believe
the scale tipped heavily in favor of the Celts being some kind of backward barbarians.

Hey Reb- what about Bannockburn?? I think that should be on the list as well.

Anyway, to you decendents of this culture, raise your heads high- you got a lot to be proud of!!

CC

 

[theBaron]

It's a dark world. While I certainly agree that there are good individuals, I have never come across a society that was not perfectly willing to kill for its own self interest, particularly religious or economic interests. Barbaric, every one.

Hide any sharp objects and booze from this guy!

Prost!
Brad

 

[Louis Badolato]

Hide any sharp objects and booze from this guy!

Prost!
Brad

Brad,

As I am descended from both the Roman (Italian) and Celtish (Scottish) culture, it will always be difficult to keep both sharp objects and booze from me!

However, I do have a very dark view of the world, as I am an Appellate attorney who tends to see a lot of very bad things in the course of my professional life (particularly when it comes to government). As a result I have a much greater trust in individuals than societies. I find that the average person is much more likely to do the right thing, be merciful and act civilized than the average government or other collective group like an organized religion, large corporation or society. I think what I refer to as "barbarism" is a reflection of the "gang" tendencies of groups to fear, blame and often act violently against different people.

 

[theBaron]

Brad,

As I am descended from both the Roman (Italian) and Celtish (Scottish) culture, it will always be difficult to keep both sharp objects and booze from me!

However, I do have a very dark view of the world, as I am an Appellate attorney who tends to see a lot of very bad things in the course of my professional life (particularly when it comes to government). As a result I have a much greater trust in individuals than societies. I find that the average person is much more likely to do the right thing, be merciful and act civilized than the average government or other collective group like an organized religion, large corporation or society. I think what I refer to as "barbarism" is a reflection of the "gang" tendencies of groups to fear, blame and often act violently against different people.

Very true. All the more reason to support small government ("Government serves the governed best when it is limited").

I chose not to become a lawyer, after working for my uncle for a summer when I was an undergrad. He's an attorney, and reading old case files made me decide not to pursue it.

But I've got you beat, as far as cultural heritage and moodiness goes: German, Italian, Irish and Welsh. And Catholic, to boot.

At least the Pope and I drink the same beer, he's a good Bavarian, and likes his Franziskaner Hefeweizen.

Prost, beianand
Brad

 

[Spitfrnd]

I have similar reasons not to be left alone with guns or alcohol with Scottish, Irish, English, French, German and Native American blood. There is more than enough Barbarism to go around there but some of the rougher edges have been smoothed through the passage of time.

I also have exposure to groups and governments similar to Louis (although I try to avoid the appeals). To me government of any size is a necessary evil. It exists to deal with things that individuals cannot do well alone or in small groups. The trouble is that may individuals and small groups are always trying to get it to serve a personal agenda they cannot achieve by themselves. Plato was correct that it should be a duty and not a privilige. As people like Jefferson and Hamilton intended and practiced, it should not be left to professional politicians. Unfortunately, even our founders never quite got close to Plato's idea of a political draft and we are so far from that now it may never happen.

 

[theBaron]

The political philosophy handed down to us from the English Enlightenment is one of the greatest gifts we have. The works of Hobbes and Locke really did inform the minds of the Founding Fathers.

Prosit!
Brad

 

[maloyalo]

I guess I would say the Celts were pretty much the same as any other people. The fortunes and development I think depends more on the circumstances and location. The mediterranean area was a fruitful area of civilization likely because it was easy to interface with other peoples and was a sea road of trade.

I have heard the analogy before, of comparing Pickett's charge to a ancient Celtic wedge assault. There are some similiarities, but really most massed assaults on a single point are all essentially the same. The 'rebel yell' was pretty distinqtive, but may have been an imitation of the Native American war cries, in living memory. btw I have read that about 60% of both armies was of Scottish or Irish decent. They were just the last large immigrant wave prior to the war.

We have some clue on the nature of the Germanic war cry, the 'Baritus', but none that I know of on what the Celts used. Perhaps someone has read something on it. But even the distinqtive 'Baritus' is described exactly the same as the Zulu war cries, both utilizing the shield as a sort of bass speaker, and also clashing their spears against them. Is it Form determines function or vice versa ?

 

[Saber]

"He is like a wild animal, usually filthy, always dressed in rags and his screaming yells when his end-of-rotation helicopter turns up to take him home are enough to curdle one's blood. Mr Heid is basically a Barbarian".

Now that's a review! Sounds like you might have been one of my airborne instructors

 

[Harrytheheid]

Uh oh Hey H- I didn't mean to get something started here and if I did, perhaps Shannon should intercept this thread before it goes south

Not at all Chris. I'm finding this thread extremely interesting, indeed stimulating. I simply meant that I'm more interested in reading everyone else's points of view on this one rather than spouting my own opinions concerning Celt, Gaels, Erse, Welsh, Pict's, Britons, Bretons, and so on, (apologies to those I've missed), which I suspect are very similar to your own.
Keep it up guys cos I think this is one of the more thought-provoking threads at the present moment.

Cheers
H

 

[Currahee Chris]

Not at all Chris. I'm finding this thread extremely interesting, indeed stimulating. I simply meant that I'm more interested in reading everyone else's points of view on this one rather than spouting my own opinions concerning Celt, Gaels, Erse, Welsh, Pict's, Britons, Bretons, and so on, (apologies to those I've missed), which I suspect are very similar to your own.
Keep it up guys cos I think this is one of the more thought-provoking threads at the present moment.

Cheers
H

Thanks bud- though somewhere along the line this became a thread to bash state and local government?? WTF?? I think if anyone has any horror stories to relate, it's a guy who has specialized in state and local government audits and has performed those exclusively here all along the mid-atlantic coastline- in fact, I have several years experience auditing some of the very governments some of these guys live in. While the spending policies of these SLG's may be absurd at times, I have found as many stories of heroism with local civil servants in the Children and Youth , domestic relations, and mental health/ mental retardation offices as well as sheriff, police and fire department offices.

I have seen CEO's of fortune 500 companies bilk companies like pigs at a trough. People are people, irrespective of who they work for. Unfortunately, I see a lot of people blast state and local government employees when they really never see the unselfish acts and tiresome and thankless efforts they put forth every day for 20-30 years. They attach the policy to the employee and it just isn't fair, but hey, it is what it is.

I guess I pulled the podium up here, though I do wish this thread would get back on track, as I think a lot of you folks "Across the pond" would have a lot to say on the subject.

Anyway, I'm leaving to Orlando here and am getting ready. See you gentlemen later next week.

 

[damian]

It was explained to me like this.
Ask an Englishman and then a Scotsman why Hadrian built his wall.
The first will say to keep the Scots out, the latter will say to keep the English in.
Regards
Damian