BBC Armistice 90th Anniversary progs. (1 Viewer)

[Rob]

Well we've already had some excellant tv programmes from the BBC regarding WW1 and its conclusion 90 years ago next week.

First we had Michael Palin (of Python fame)presenting an excellant docu on the final day of WW1.Its a little known fact that some 11,000 (!) men lost their lives on the 11/11/18 despite it being the last day of the war.It was heartbreaking to see some of the decisions on that day were beyond belief.There was one American General (his name escapes me)who with about three hours to go ordered his men to take a town occupied by the Germans simply because it had hot water and his men needed a bath.This resulted in 1,000 casualties including 300 dead!.Three hundred Deaths for hot water!! Call me old ' Mr jump the gun' but i'm guessing the men who died,even if they were infested with lice, would have rather waited three hours and strolled into town rather than die.There was an investigation into this in the US after the war but it didn't sound like anyone went to the wall for it.

We then had a new series called 'My family at War'.This follows well known tv,sport,entertainment celebs as they discover their ancestors role in WW1,each programme follows the stories of two celebs.

The first was a well known Historian called Dan Snow who traced his famous Great Grandfather (General Thomas)participation in WW1 with the majority of the prog concentrating on the Somme.To say this was shocking for Mr Snow is an understatement!.It soon became clear that his Great Grandfather was/is the subject of much criticism for a)not even being in France during the run up to the Somme and b)when he did finally arrive he stationed himself so far behind the lines that he was completely out of touch and had no idea or grasp of what was going on.His letters home beggar belief,on the 2nd of July he writes home saying things are going well and the Germans are beaten!.

But (and to the obvious and great shame of his great grandson)his biggest crime was that after the Battle he declared in a report the failure was due to the 'Lack of offensive spirit in the men'!.You could see the shame and anger in his descendants face,very moving.

The other celeb was tv actress Natalie Cassidy.She discovered that her great grandfather volunteered to help clear the battlefields after WW1.This was a very dangerous and traumatic job indeed.I was stunned as i heard how they would find bodies that were just under the surface.They would take a long piece of metal sharpened at one end and stick it into the clump of grass that often grew from human remains,they then removed it and sniffed it!.If it had a strong smell and was sticky they knew theyd found a body.After years of this he then went onto clearing shells from the battlefield.

Ms Cassidy then met a Belgian Explosives expert who clears the shells still found today.She asked him how much they still find?. '300 tons last year'.She then said 'i understand your people and ordinary members of the public still die because of this'. Yes he said 'Just yesterday'!!

Its truly awful that here we are the best part of a hundred years on from that terrible,terrible war and people are still dying every year because of WW1

The BBC are doing a real good job in their rememberance season,its good to know they can still get some things right.

Rob

 

[theBaron]

We'll have to see how the History Channel does, over here. They might not want to bump the UFO and cryptozoology shows.

Rob, you're right about how terrible WWI was, and how people are still dying today because of it. And actually, you can make a case that the death toll is even higher, if you look at the first World War as the first phase of a series of conflicts that include the Russian Revolution, Stalin's starvation campaigns, WWII, the Chinese revolution, Korea and Vietnam. Without WWI, it's not likely that the Bolsheviks would ever have succeeded as they did, and without WWI, and the German defeat, there is no immediate cause for Hitler, National Socialism, and the second war.

And what is even more tragic is that WWI did not need to happen. The major European powers had enjoyed general peace since 1815-understood, of course, that there were regional wars, involving groups of the states. But not a general war, involving every power, as the Napoleonic wars were.

But lesser statesmen were at the respective helms, and generally, they lacked the wisdom, shrewdness and skill that it would have taken to avoid the blunders of the summer of 1914.

What a shame it was, indeed! Our world today would be different, certainly.

 

[Rob]

Well have to see how the History Channel does, over here. They might not want to bump the UFO and cryptozoology shows.

Rob, you're right about how terrible WWI was, and how people are still dying today because of it. And actually, you can make a case that the death toll is even higher, if you look at the first World War as the first phase of a series of conflicts that include the Russian Revolution, Stalin's starvation campaigns, WWII, the Chinese revolution, Korea and Vietnam. Without WWI, it's not likely that the Bolsheviks would ever have succeeded as they did, and without WWI, and the German defeat, there is no immediate cause for Hitler, National Socialism, and the second war.

And what is even more tragic is that WWI did not need to happen. The major European powers had enjoyed general peace since 1815-understood, of course, that there were regional wars, involving groups of the states. But not a general war, involving every power, as the Napoleonic wars were.

But lesser statesmen were at the respective helms, and generally, they lacked the wisdom, shrewdness and skill that it would have taken to avoid the blunders of the summer of 1914.

What a shame it was, indeed! Our world today would be different, certainly.

Excellant post mate.Yep you have to wonder if it was just too easy to go to war and as you say the statesmen just didn't have the skill to avoid it.Also i guess the growing powers and empires of many of the combatants had to flex their muscles at each other until brinkmanship errupted into full blown war.At least in WW2 the world fought against true evil,WW1 was so much more muddled and tragic.

On tuesday the last three remaining WW1 vets in Britain,including the only man alive to have fought in the trenches will lay wreaths at the cenotaph.I just have to be there to salute them for what will possibly be the last time.

Rob

 

[trooper]

The big mistake of the First World War was not going in to take Berlin, in consequence we had the rematch twenty years on. In the first Gulf War we didn't take Baghdad and consequently had the second. History contains the mistakes of the past but unfortunately politicians seem to take no notice of it and in this country, at least, seem to do their best to discourage the study of it. We need many more programmes like these.

 

[Rob]

Yes its programmes like these that pass on the message and ensure we never forget.

Rob

 

[vandilay]

That sounds like a great Doco Rob , its been ages since they have
aired anything like that here , I guess it takes up valuable airtime
that could be used to watch a group of people thrown together
[ totaly randomly of course] in some house/tropical island/outback/railaway carriage/cardboard box .
I thought this sketch from Blackadder sums up ww 1 quite well
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uh0rgwqZOxY

 

[trooper]

My father was in the Great War. He was wounded twice and gassed once before he was twenty. He would only talk about trivial things, what they used to get up to when out of the line, camp concerts and things like that. But never about the trenches. He had enlisted in the Norfolk Regiment but was rebadged to the Royal Fusiliers after he was wounded the first time. When the BBC series "The Great War" was broadcast for the first time he would sit staring intently at the screen, I asked him if he was looking for familiar faces and he replied "No...just remembering". And that's what we should always do.

 

[Rob]

That sounds like a great Doco Rob , its been ages since they have
aired anything like that here , I guess it takes up valuable airtime
that could be used to watch a group of people thrown together
[ totaly randomly of course] in some house/tropical island/outback/railaway carriage/cardboard box .
I thought this sketch from Blackadder sums up ww 1 quite well
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uh0rgwqZOxY

Absolutely Rob,some of the rubbish on tv today is beyond belief.I remember one girl on Big Brother whose main ambition in life was to be like David Beckhams wife!.God save us!

This morning the BBC's reporter is at Vimy ridge and the preserved trenches there,very interesting.

Rob

 

[Louis Badolato]

We'll have to see how the History Channel does, over here. They might not want to bump the UFO and cryptozoology shows.

Rob, you're right about how terrible WWI was, and how people are still dying today because of it. And actually, you can make a case that the death toll is even higher, if you look at the first World War as the first phase of a series of conflicts that include the Russian Revolution, Stalin's starvation campaigns, WWII, the Chinese revolution, Korea and Vietnam. Without WWI, it's not likely that the Bolsheviks would ever have succeeded as they did, and without WWI, and the German defeat, there is no immediate cause for Hitler, National Socialism, and the second war.

And what is even more tragic is that WWI did not need to happen. The major European powers had enjoyed general peace since 1815-understood, of course, that there were regional wars, involving groups of the states. But not a general war, involving every power, as the Napoleonic wars were.

But lesser statesmen were at the respective helms, and generally, they lacked the wisdom, shrewdness and skill that it would have taken to avoid the blunders of the summer of 1914.

What a shame it was, indeed! Our world today would be different, certainly.

Excellent post Brad. I have never had much interest in WWI for that very reason - it just didn't need to happen. It seemed to me that Victoria's various grandchildren got into a pissing match over who was tougher, and decided it was about time for a good solid European land war. March in modern technology and an incompetent officer corps (particularly the generals, especially the French and English), and an entire generation ends up buried under flanders, in Turkey, in Palestine, and on the Russian front. Have there ever been moral and competent politicians to lead us? I just don't ever come across them when I read history.

 

[theBaron]

I agree with you, Louis, the list of politicians who were not competent is a long one, but I can think of some exceptions.

I think Franklin Roosevelt and Winston Churchill were good wartime politicians, for example, who were able to make the goals clear and marshall everyone towards those goals.

I think John F Kennedy and Ronald Reagan had the same ability, too, though they are didn't serve during declared wars. I would include Lincoln, too, who managed to guide the country through the war, but also overcome strong domestic opposition, too, almost losing, at both tasks.

Maybe some of the Presidents and Prime Ministers of Israel could be included as well, working for the survival of their state against sworn enemies and with virtually no support from outside, especially in the first decade of the modern State of Israel's existence.

Maybe some of the other British Prime Ministers, too, Pitt, for example, and Disraeli.

Prost!
Brad

 

[UKReb]

Excellent post Brad. I have never had much interest in WWI for that very reason - it just didn't need to happen. It seemed to me that Victoria's various grandchildren got into a pissing match over who was tougher, and decided it was about time for a good solid European land war. March in modern technology and an incompetent officer corps (particularly the generals, especially the French and English), and an entire generation ends up buried under flanders, in Turkey, in Palestine, and on the Russian front. Have there ever been moral and competent politicians to lead us? I just don't ever come across them when I read history.

You raise an interesting point Louis about Victoria's various grandchildren relieving themselves across Europe. However, it was her eldest son Bertie who became Edward VII and because of that family relationship was able to keep the European countries from tearing themselves apart earlier in the century. Here in the UK he is still known by two nicknames Edward the Peacemaker and the Uncle of Europe due to his sterling work in demanding and getting peace between the families throughout his short reign.
But he was also very aware that Wilhelm II, who he personally loathed with a vengeance, was the devil in the wood pile and had fierce arguments with him throughout that first decade of the 20th century and Wilhelm being frightened of upsetting his Uncle Bertie stayed very much in check.

Unfortunately Edward died in 1910 but not before telling his son the Prince of Wales later George V to keep a close eye on your cousin Wilhelm because given the chance he will set Europe aflame. But George was not the great negotiator or communicator that his father was and just a mere four years later.............

Agree with other posts WWI was absolutely pointless but the sad thing about it all that still unfortunately holds today is once a nation is committed to war then someone has to pay the levy in blood-and that's why we remember them.
Reb

 

[thebritfarmer]

The Canadian Government have been playing some beautiful TV "ADS" for November 11th 2008.

I have to look on youtube to see if they have been posted.

 

[Louis Badolato]

You raise an interesting point Louis about Victoria's various grandchildren relieving themselves across Europe. However, it was her eldest son Bertie who became Edward VII and because of that family relationship was able to keep the European countries from tearing themselves apart earlier in the century. Here in the UK he is still known by two nicknames Edward the Peacemaker and the Uncle of Europe due to his sterling work in demanding and getting peace between the families throughout his short reign.
But he was also very aware that Wilhelm II, who he personally loathed with a vengeance, was the devil in the wood pile and had fierce arguments with him throughout that first decade of the 20th century and Wilhelm being frightened of upsetting his Uncle Bertie stayed very much in check.

Unfortunately Edward died in 1910 but not before telling his son the Prince of Wales later George V to keep a close eye on your cousin Wilhelm because given the chance he will set Europe aflame. But George was not the great negotiator or communicator that his father was and just a mere four years later.............

Agree with other posts WWI was absolutely pointless but the sad thing about it all that still unfortunately holds today is once a nation is committed to war then someone has to pay the levy in blood-and that's why we remember them.
Reb

Reb,

I didn't mean to take anything away from remembering the brave soldiers who died in WWI. I agree that we have to remember and honor all who sacrifice themselves for our countries. I can't imagine the courage it required to "go over the top" on one of those human wave attacks. Those men were cut from the finest cloth.

 

[Rob]

Reb,

I didn't mean to take anything away from remembering the brave soldiers who died in WWI. I agree that we have to remember and honor all who sacrifice themselves for our countries. I can't imagine the courage it required to "go over the top" on one of those human wave attacks. Those men were cut from the finest cloth.

Very nicely put Louis.I Once had the honour of meeting one of the very best WW1 authors Lyn Macdonald,she told me that all the veterans she met bitterly resented the 'Cannon fodder' theory and were very proud of what they did.

This is summed up very nicely in a quote from a book i'm reading by Prof Richard Holmes called 'Tommy'.Its from H.E.L Mellersh a twice wounded British officer.He says;

They sometimes...paint the picture in colours of too unrelieved gloom.One of the curious things about a nation at war- one of the tradgedies too-is that life is intensified.There is much happiness in wartime,much that is spiritied,much that is admirable,much that is just jolly...

The second misrepresentation when it occurs is more serious.It stems largely from a mistaken conviction that in World War 1 the troops were supremely badly led.And from this unfair conviction there issues sometimes an out look even more unfair;that the war was one vast useless,futile tradegy,worthy only to be remembered only as a pitable mistake.

I and my like entered the war expecting an heroic adventure and believing implicitly in the rightness of our cause;we ended greatly disillusioned as to the nature of the adventure but still believing that our cause was right and we had not fought in vain.


When i stand at the service tommorow at 11am i shall remember all the young men who gave their lives so that i may live a free man.God bless every one of them.

Rob

 

[Sans Culotte]

I seriously doubt how much (if any) coverage will be given in the U.S. to the 90th anniversary of the end of the Great War. Myself a Vietnam-Era vet, I still prefer to call November 11th Armistice Day, rather than Veterans' Day, as I feel that the 11th should stand on its own. My maternal grandfather was in the Royal Scots Greys, one great-uncle was in the RAMC (having previously served in the Boer War), and another great-uncle was in the Argyll & Sutherlands. No, November 11th is THEIR day, not mine. Britain, the Commonwealth, and France will remember, as they always seem to do. When the "Last Post" is played, I cannot adequately convey what that does to me. Meanwhile, on U.S. TV, there will be only more mindless, mind-numbing programs.