black primer (1 Viewer)
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theBaron
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Good question...I've never thought about undercoating with black, except in the case of metalizers used in scale modeling to reproduce a natural metal finish on an aircraft. What is the end effect that you're trying to achieve, that you'd like to use a black primer? Do you want it to serve as the basis for shading? Is the piece metal or plastic?
The cheap arts-and-craft store acrylics might do the job. I have some of the paints from the Americana line sold at Michael's, which could be brushed on as a primer. If it were as a pre-shade, I'd still probably use a purpose-formulated primer, then just coat the piece in black over that.
If it's not impossible for you to use a rattle-can primer, you could probably use Rustoleum's black heat-resistant grill paint as a primer, too.
Whatever you choose, I would make doubly sure that I'd cleaned the piece well, before priming, to ensure as a good a "tooth" as possible.
Hope that helps, prost!
Brad
The cheap arts-and-craft store acrylics might do the job. I have some of the paints from the Americana line sold at Michael's, which could be brushed on as a primer. If it were as a pre-shade, I'd still probably use a purpose-formulated primer, then just coat the piece in black over that.
If it's not impossible for you to use a rattle-can primer, you could probably use Rustoleum's black heat-resistant grill paint as a primer, too.
Whatever you choose, I would make doubly sure that I'd cleaned the piece well, before priming, to ensure as a good a "tooth" as possible.
Hope that helps, prost!
Brad
Carnahan
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I mainly paint plastics, and have been using Testor's gray enamel primer and Boyd's white enamel primer. Boyd's is good, but with darker overlying colors you need to add several coats so the primer doesn't show through. The Testors is darker but the two times I've used it I've found that the overlying coat comes out very glossy even if it is a matte paint. Dullcote laquer doesn't even seem to kill the shine. Also, Testors has a strange tacky feel to it that I've never found with any other primer, and I don't know if this could be causing the gloss effect. So I was wondering if there was a black alternative for darker uniforms.
PJDeluhery
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I'm not a big fan of black primer, but you can certainly mix a little black paint into your present gray primer to get the color you're looking for.
I know wargamers that use a rattle-can black from the hardware store, as Brad suggested.
I know wargamers that use a rattle-can black from the hardware store, as Brad suggested.
Carnahan
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Not a bad idea with the mixing - I'll give it a try!
kilted vampire
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One could dry brush white over the black primer. It will help pick up details while leaving the shadowed areas black. The white will help provide a better base for brighter colors.
johnnybach
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I once watched a professional painter in Boneparte's shop in Bath (UK) using a can of Black Primer to spray on some Napoleonic figures before painting. I asked him why black? The reply, which surprised me, was that he reckoned that the colours came out ritcher at the end!
I just prefer to paint with thin washes first - and then go over this with the colour that I eventually want. I have tried grey primer - but just don't like it - as it seems to "swamp" the figure. Takes a bit longer I s'pose, but so what! - johnnybach
I just prefer to paint with thin washes first - and then go over this with the colour that I eventually want. I have tried grey primer - but just don't like it - as it seems to "swamp" the figure. Takes a bit longer I s'pose, but so what! - johnnybach
theBaron
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The primer or undercoat definitely has an effect on the color laid over it, taking into account thickness of the final coats, and what kind of paint you use in each pass-oil, enamel, acrylic. If you want a brighter shade of white, for example, it helps to use a light-colored primer. And white, used as a primer, makes red or yellow brighter. That's a trick in scale modeling, too. If you have to paint a red tail surface, or even lay down a decal, it helps to use white underneath.
Conversely, a dark primer will help darker colors have a richer dark hue.
I keep both dark and light gray primers on hand, plus the red-rust-colored one that I picked up as an experiment. Using black is an old wargamer's technique, if I'm not mistaken, to help provide shading or outlining on smaller figures, though I think many use washes today, instead.
Prost!
Brad
johnnybach
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Well - thanks for the comprehensive explanation Brad, I didn't know much of that. Looks like I've arrived at my use of thinned washes as undercoats, just by chance. It seems to work for me - as I have tried brushing on primer, but just can't get on with using it. I think that I must heve been sploshing it on too thickly - because I was losing definition on the figures that I tried it on (some Tradition castings - if memory serves me right). I cleaned it off later - and started again.
I guess that whatever works for you - just works for you! I must admit - there is a noticeable difference when I use a thin coat of "flesh" - underneath any shade of red. It definitely appears a brighter and richer colour to me. As that's my favourite colour - that's what I do! johnnybach
I guess that whatever works for you - just works for you! I must admit - there is a noticeable difference when I use a thin coat of "flesh" - underneath any shade of red. It definitely appears a brighter and richer colour to me. As that's my favourite colour - that's what I do! johnnybach
PJDeluhery
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At the risk of beating the subject to death, let me expand upon what Brad says below.
Optics - When you see a color, such as red, you look through the paint and see a relection of the top color off the undercoat. If you want a darker red, a dark under coat will give you a red that is not so bright. If you want bright colors, a light primer reflects better and your colors will be brighter. Some artists feel that bright colors are not "realistic," so they go for the darker undercoats to make their colors more muted. This is particularly desirable for modern figure subjects, such as WWII, where the uniforms are drab and the colors muted. The same results can be achieved by simply mixing mutued colors, but dark undercoating is another way to do it. I actually have a flat on my bench right now that is undercoated in balck because all the colors of the figure are dark and muted - its the "Caretaker" from Ghost Rider. However, the flames on the head and extremities are underpainted in white to give brilliant flames and in contrast to the dark brown of the figure itself.
Paints - Dark primers work better with acrylics because the range of value extension in modeling acrylics colors is some 12 shades up (lighter) but only 3 shades down. In other words, the are generally intended to work from dark to light. This is not true with oils, where it is much harder to bring a dark color up by painting over it. I'm not sure about enamels, but assume they tend more towards acrylics, based on my experience. For me, as an oils painter, a white or light gray works much better for historical subjects and for fantasy subjects becasue I can achieve more brilliant colors - which IMO gives the figures a nice color "pop".
Style. War gamers use black undercoating as part of painting style. They paint the highlights (at least this is one style!) and let the blacks be the shading. This gives a very contrasty look which works well on smaller figures but (IMO) looks out of place on larger pieces. However, if you have to paint a few hundred figures in about a month, this is a fast way to amass a relatively good looking painted army quickly.
How you see. Some painters paint from dark to light (shadows to highlights), some from light to dark, and some start in the middle and work to both extremes. If you are not a dark to light painter, you will find it harder to anticipate your highs on a black primed piece. If you start dark, then black primer will be in line with how you see and paint. The converse is true for a light primer if you are a dark to light painter.
Color mixing and transparency. It is easier - and requires less paint -to mix a color from light to dark. For example, if I want a dark gray, I start with white and add black. I can get the same thing starting with black and adding white, but it requires more paint. The same is true with painting on top of black - it requires many more layers of any color paint to brighten a dark spot than to darken a light spot. So you're making a lot of work for yourself to prime in black if you have to lighten the value of whole figure over the black. If you have a dark subject, then your work is reduced becasue the darker values are already in place. IF you paint in washes or use transparent colros, these techniques depend on the color underneath to be effective - so for light subects use light undercoat; and for dark subjects use a balck or dark gray.
Bottomline - There's no right way or wrong way. You can achieve any result a number of different ways. It's what works for you - and to a certain degree your style and subjects. Since most of us are not trained artists, we tend to go with a technique without necessarily understanding why it works or does not. The longer we paint, the more we learn, and the better we get at picking techniques that achieve the results we are after.
Optics - When you see a color, such as red, you look through the paint and see a relection of the top color off the undercoat. If you want a darker red, a dark under coat will give you a red that is not so bright. If you want bright colors, a light primer reflects better and your colors will be brighter. Some artists feel that bright colors are not "realistic," so they go for the darker undercoats to make their colors more muted. This is particularly desirable for modern figure subjects, such as WWII, where the uniforms are drab and the colors muted. The same results can be achieved by simply mixing mutued colors, but dark undercoating is another way to do it. I actually have a flat on my bench right now that is undercoated in balck because all the colors of the figure are dark and muted - its the "Caretaker" from Ghost Rider. However, the flames on the head and extremities are underpainted in white to give brilliant flames and in contrast to the dark brown of the figure itself.
Paints - Dark primers work better with acrylics because the range of value extension in modeling acrylics colors is some 12 shades up (lighter) but only 3 shades down. In other words, the are generally intended to work from dark to light. This is not true with oils, where it is much harder to bring a dark color up by painting over it. I'm not sure about enamels, but assume they tend more towards acrylics, based on my experience. For me, as an oils painter, a white or light gray works much better for historical subjects and for fantasy subjects becasue I can achieve more brilliant colors - which IMO gives the figures a nice color "pop".
Style. War gamers use black undercoating as part of painting style. They paint the highlights (at least this is one style!) and let the blacks be the shading. This gives a very contrasty look which works well on smaller figures but (IMO) looks out of place on larger pieces. However, if you have to paint a few hundred figures in about a month, this is a fast way to amass a relatively good looking painted army quickly.
How you see. Some painters paint from dark to light (shadows to highlights), some from light to dark, and some start in the middle and work to both extremes. If you are not a dark to light painter, you will find it harder to anticipate your highs on a black primed piece. If you start dark, then black primer will be in line with how you see and paint. The converse is true for a light primer if you are a dark to light painter.
Color mixing and transparency. It is easier - and requires less paint -to mix a color from light to dark. For example, if I want a dark gray, I start with white and add black. I can get the same thing starting with black and adding white, but it requires more paint. The same is true with painting on top of black - it requires many more layers of any color paint to brighten a dark spot than to darken a light spot. So you're making a lot of work for yourself to prime in black if you have to lighten the value of whole figure over the black. If you have a dark subject, then your work is reduced becasue the darker values are already in place. IF you paint in washes or use transparent colros, these techniques depend on the color underneath to be effective - so for light subects use light undercoat; and for dark subjects use a balck or dark gray.
Bottomline - There's no right way or wrong way. You can achieve any result a number of different ways. It's what works for you - and to a certain degree your style and subjects. Since most of us are not trained artists, we tend to go with a technique without necessarily understanding why it works or does not. The longer we paint, the more we learn, and the better we get at picking techniques that achieve the results we are after.
johnnybach
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Holy Mackarel PJ - that's a whole lotta stuff for me to digest in one go, I'll have to look at the again.! As one of them thar untrained hamatuers myself - it's a lot to learn in one bite - but bite I will!. And here's me thinking you were still stuck in North Africa on a camel - and it was all my fault!
Yep - understand a lot of what you are saying - 'cos I've learned the hard way myself for many of the things you say. Still fun to find out by "having a try" though. I guess as a "Showy Glossy" type myself, its the shiny bright colours that are my favourite - so a lighter undercoat will work best for my "style" (if I dare call it that!). Black is good for hats - and a touch for anything else!!!
Interesting discussion this - I WILL be experimenting further. Nice to hear from you agin though - all my best to Beau Gest! Give your camel a carrot from me - johnnybach
Yep - understand a lot of what you are saying - 'cos I've learned the hard way myself for many of the things you say. Still fun to find out by "having a try" though. I guess as a "Showy Glossy" type myself, its the shiny bright colours that are my favourite - so a lighter undercoat will work best for my "style" (if I dare call it that!). Black is good for hats - and a touch for anything else!!!
Interesting discussion this - I WILL be experimenting further. Nice to hear from you agin though - all my best to Beau Gest! Give your camel a carrot from me - johnnybach
kilted vampire
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One could say many roads and many destinations. It boils down to the path of your own choosing. Whatever looks good and works for you. Me I am all over the road on this. Still trying to figure it out. Quite frankly you could also say that some techniques work better on different figures, or eras even. Look at all the different styles out there in the prepainted world. However one does need the odd refresher to enhance ones' skills{sm0}
I will end with this, using black primer lets spots I miss appear as shadows{sm4}
I will end with this, using black primer lets spots I miss appear as shadows{sm4}
johnnybach
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Ha - ha Good answer KV - I particularly like the missing spots as shadows! Absolutely agree with " what works for you" - and also "what you are doing". As I am nearly always aiming for "Best Britains Toy Soldier" look - I think I've found "my way". I must say though, I have learned a lot from Brad and PJD's input - and may try out some of their ideas - so glad I joined in on this one. johnnybach
theBaron
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That's what's great about our area (ie, the painters' area) of the forum, we can share our experiences and tips.
I've just started messing around with washes, too. I've used them on scale models, for example, but never really used them on my toy soldiers. But after seeing some of the work that others are doing, I'm experimenting to see what I get.
Prost!
Brad
I've just started messing around with washes, too. I've used them on scale models, for example, but never really used them on my toy soldiers. But after seeing some of the work that others are doing, I'm experimenting to see what I get.
Prost!
Brad
PJDeluhery
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Since we're having so much fun.......
I was talking to Mike (? I think that's his name) the owner of Collectors Showcase at the last Chicago show. He told me an interesting story.
Sometime ago, he had a lot of trouble with the flesh colors on his figures - they just didn't look right. I know one collector that re-painted the flesh on any C.S. figure he bought. (Not digging at C.S. here, just trying to make a point!) So one day, Mike is at the factory in H.K and he's looking at a row of figures about to be painted. Horrors! The flesh was primed in ....wait for it..........wait for it......PURPLE! He immediately called a meeting and had the primer color switched to light gray - I believe. His painters were using up whatever primer colors were laying around just to save some money. Interesting story!
BTW, I'm not a trainted artist or painter. My "art school degree" is from Hard Knocks College, supplemented with some kind advice by some really top-notch painters at figure shows over 30 some years. I have done painting articles for my local modeling club newsletter, just to sort of organize my thougts on what I've learned over the years. If this is helpful to anyone, I'm pleased.
I was talking to Mike (? I think that's his name) the owner of Collectors Showcase at the last Chicago show. He told me an interesting story.
Sometime ago, he had a lot of trouble with the flesh colors on his figures - they just didn't look right. I know one collector that re-painted the flesh on any C.S. figure he bought. (Not digging at C.S. here, just trying to make a point!) So one day, Mike is at the factory in H.K and he's looking at a row of figures about to be painted. Horrors! The flesh was primed in ....wait for it..........wait for it......PURPLE! He immediately called a meeting and had the primer color switched to light gray - I believe. His painters were using up whatever primer colors were laying around just to save some money. Interesting story!
BTW, I'm not a trainted artist or painter. My "art school degree" is from Hard Knocks College, supplemented with some kind advice by some really top-notch painters at figure shows over 30 some years. I have done painting articles for my local modeling club newsletter, just to sort of organize my thougts on what I've learned over the years. If this is helpful to anyone, I'm pleased.