China factories (2 Viewers)

[theBaron]

I recommend Richard O'Brien's "Collecting Toy Soldiers", he did all the leg work, and after the first two editions, he specialized the 3rd and 4th for American- and foreign-made (from our perspective). Very useful references.

Prost!
Brad

 

[Rutledge]

Interesting. You know, I'll bet you there is an opportunity here (for someone in the USA). Its probably a little early yet, and the timing (consumer-wise) is not ideal. But I suspect we are going to see changes in the way LOTS of things are produced.

 

[4th Hussar]

We have had several American toy soldier companies that produced "new toy soldier " type metal soldiers. Jack Scruby of California, Quartermaster Corp in the Midwest and Gorton soldiers from Arizona which are all gone. Currently we have Nicholson of Ohio and my favorite William hocker of California.All have been small cottage industries. Not aware of a major large toy company that produced anything other than plastics since the 50s.

America can produce toy soldiers but our labor laws and wage rates would make anything that requires a significant amount of skilled hand work very expensive.

I agree with most of what you say except for one thing. Did America ever really make toy soldiers. I accept that the US made great cars motorbikes and everything else but toy soldiers in the old days were really British, French and German. The dimestores are ok but cannot compare to WB, Mignot, Heyde or Elastoin.

 

[damian]

Well, de gustibus non disputandem, of course

However, there were American makers who aspired to the standard of Britain's and Mignot. The Warren Lines was one such manufacturer, but his misfortune was to produce a high-quality product at the height of the Second Depression (during Roosevelt's second term), his figures were well-done, well-received and drew comparisons with Britains, but they were expensive (for the times).

Another maker was Jones, who produced some nice figures, too, but who was too inconsistent a businessman to stay afloat.

Comet was another manufacturer who aspired to replace Britains, at least here at home. Now, no one would say that they were anything but toys, but they could also be compared to their contemporaries by Britains or Mignot, especially when considered in sets, as opposed to in the individual figure. (Actually, that same observation could be made of Heyde. Individually, the detail is scheusslich, but you have to step back and look at the whole set.) Of course, Comet's quality improved after the war, when Erickson began sculpting for them, and the company re-branded as Authenticast.

And it was the drive to produce a well-detailed figure that inspired Jack Scheid, Bill Imrie, Clyde Risley and others, to begin sculpting, and produce what we would recognize as military miniatures, as opposed to toys. They were followed by makers, some of whom we all have met and known in our own time (eg, Alan Silk, Ed Lober, Ron Wall, etc, etc), where the lines have shifted, and now we think of "collector's toys", rather than kids' toys.

Prost!
Brad

Well said Brad.
Thanks for setting me right. Maybe I will try and get hold of O Brien's book some time. I need to read up a bit on US toy soldiers.
Regards
Damian

 

[Steven Chong]

In my opinion, I do not see toy soldiers or military miniatures of the present expected quality (e.g. K&C, Britains, Figarti, lst Legion, Frontline, Collector's Showcase, East of India, etc.) being produced in the US at a reasonable price. There was some products that are now more cost effective to produce in the US like sleeping bags sold by Walmart -- the supplier moved production back to the US. However, the production of toy soldiers is extremely labor intensive, in very low production runs, and does not lend itself to mass production techniques -- flash on castings have to be individually filed off, the figure assembled (if any), then handpainted. Collectors now also expect a level of paint quality and detail that was not found on figures produced even ten years ago.

While wages have increased in China (doubled between 2001 to 2007), there is still a substantial gap compared to wages in the US. The average hourly wage in Guangdong province, which I think is the location of most of K&C's factories, is about 66 US cents per hour or double the national Chinese average of 38 US cents per hour. The current US Federal minimum wage is $6.55 per hour or close to 1000% more than Guangdong. With this type of wage gap, you can understand why many manufacturing jobs moved to China and will probably remain outside the US.

 

[damian]

To be fair I would have to agree with Steven. WM Hocker is a great manufavcturer but his prices are quite high. This supports what Steven has just said about producing toy soldiers in the developed world.

 

[Rutledge]

In my opinion, I do not see toy soldiers or military miniatures of the present expected quality (e.g. K&C, Britains, Figarti, lst Legion, Frontline, Collector's Showcase, East of India, etc.) being produced in the US at a reasonable price. There was some products that are now more cost effective to produce in the US like sleeping bags sold by Walmart -- the supplier moved production back to the US. However, the production of toy soldiers is extremely labor intensive, in very low production runs, and does not lend itself to mass production techniques -- flash on castings have to be individually filed off, the figure assembled (if any), then handpainted. Collectors now also expect a level of paint quality and detail that was not found on figures produced even ten years ago.

While wages have increased in China (doubled between 2001 to 2007), there is still a substantial gap compared to wages in the US. The average hourly wage in Guangdong province, which I think is the location of most of K&C's factories, is about 66 US cents per hour or double the national Chinese average of 38 US cents per hour. The current US Federal minimum wage is $6.55 per hour or close to 1000% more than Guangdong. With this type of wage gap, you can understand why many manufacturing jobs moved to China and will probably remain outside the US.

Steven is clearly more familiar with the actual details of China's manufacturing cost structure. Frankly, Im a little surprised the salaries are still so low. I understood there was a burgeoning middle class that could afford cars, tvs and other "modern conveniences" that can run into the thousands of dollars. But perhaps that is only at the management level, and the laborers are still paid at very low (near slave?) wages.

Nevertheless, such an imbalance cannot persist indefinitely. Either we will all eventually bankrupt together, or the situation will balance out. We cannot afford to continue borrowing from China in order to finance our buying habits. Meanwhile, China must gradually develop an internal constituency of "eligible buyers" that can afford to purchase products actually "made in China" (and/or imported to it). To accomplish this, China has to see wages rise for the "average person".

A couple/few more wage doublings in China would take the hourly rate to around +$3.00. That, combined with a static or falling rate in the US, could bring things much closer.

These are interesting times, and my sense is we are just on the edge of a great deal of change --- like it or not!

 

[Steven Chong]

... Frankly, Im a little surprised the salaries are still so low. I understood there was a burgeoning middle class that could afford cars, tvs and other "modern conveniences" that can run into the thousands of dollars. But perhaps that is only at the management level, and the laborers are still paid at very low (near slave?) wages ...

Yes, wages are very low when compared to the US, but we need to remember that the cost of living in China is very low for these workers. Most of the workers at these Chinese factories come from very rural areas. Many of the factories provide dormitories and meals for their workers. The wages in the "big city" is actually more than they can earn "on the farm."

 

[maddadicus]

To be fair I would have to agree with Steven. WM Hocker is a great manufavcturer but his prices are quite high. This supports what Steven has just said about producing toy soldiers in the developed world.

Dear Damian..I have to defend Bill Hocker..his prices are excellent for the olde toy soldier glossy looks...$160 for 5 horsemen.. 8 + standing figures for $160-$170....Compare that to current toy soldier per figure pricing..Michael

 

[4th Hussar]

Dear Damian..I have to defend Bill Hocker..his prices are excellent for the olde toy soldier glossy looks...$160 for 5 horsemen.. 8 + standing figures for $160-$170....Compare that to current toy soldier per figure pricing..Michael

I agree, his prices seemed a little high when you could get a set of 4 Britain's mounted for $75 but even then when you compared the troops Hocker's were vastly superior. One constant is that you get at least what you are willing to pay for.................................

 

[The Military Workshop]

An interesting thread.
In relation to wooden planes this was a major part of my business ten years ago and they were made in the Phillipines. I did come across people in Australia who could make wooden planes but to set up a production factory would be extremely difficult. As mentioned already finding the skilled labour and wages is a major problem. The place were they come from in the Phillipines has specialised in that line of product for many years. There are other manufacturers of wooden planes apart from K&C who do Corsairs, B-17's etc. However from talking to a collector I know who has most of the K&C planes part of the appeal is the fact it is a K&C product. Basically this is "branding" and he is happy to pay the premium to have them. The manufacturer I dealt with was owned by an American and I am pretty sure if it could be done in USA he would have tried it.
I have also had a lot of experience in relation to figures. I brought out a range of figure kits about 10 years ago and also had some handpainted larger scale figures (150-200mm) made in China. I have seen most of the small scale 54mm toy soldier makers in Australia and the majority I have been aware of have not lasted long. Getting skilled painters is a major problem and even if you find someone they probably would not want to do it long term. Most have day jobs so reliability becomes a problem.
To get the volume of good quality product that companies like K&C, Britains etc puts out would be extremely diffiicult.
I am currently looking at producing a vehicle product that will be made in China (won't be of much interest to forum readers). Modellers in Australia have been making similar items and charging about 4 x what I will probably charge for it. The modellers versions are too expensive for most who would like one but my version will bring it down to an acceptable level and still be good quality. The item is handpainted and there is simply not the skill base to do it in Australia in quantity.
Going back to the figures some may be familiar with figure kits made by such companies as Andrea (Spain) and Pegaso (Italy). I don't deal in them anymore but I remember a mounted Knight/Napoleonic figure a few years ago was more expensive than a K&C mounted is now even with the drastic drop in our A$. Even though we have had pretty much a 50% increase in prices (that is just due to the falling A$) the painted Toy Soldiers are still good value compared to metal figure kits that have been made in European countries.
Just my thoughts on the subject.
Interesting times.
Regards to all Brett

 

[damian]

Dear Damian..I have to defend Bill Hocker..his prices are excellent for the olde toy soldier glossy looks...$160 for 5 horsemen.. 8 + standing figures for $160-$170....Compare that to current toy soldier per figure pricing..Michael

Guys just to clarify things I love WM Hocker's figures no disrepsect intended I assure you.
Regards
Damian

 

[Peter Reuss]

I think there's a reason that many of the US based (Hocker) and UK based toy soldier companies only sell directly to customers without a dealer network. To make up for the wage differential they need to keep every penny they can, and selling at wholesale just doesn't work.

I think that for now the only soldiers we'll see manufacturered in US/UK/Aussie countries will be made by small companies that can keep all the profits at home. This isn't a recipe for competing with 'the big boys,' but may help a small player to do ok.

 

[bromhead]

Im standing in the door and jumping,,being a bit of a nationalist and having two family members this month having their employment and personal economies terminated is becoming a burden.

 

[theBaron]

Well said Brad.
Thanks for setting me right. Maybe I will try and get hold of O Brien's book some time. I need to read up a bit on US toy soldiers.
Regards
Damian

Hi, Damian! No, I just wanted to add to your point. You're right, there was no American maker who was able to supplant the foreign makers, but I thought we needed to mention the ones who tried.

The mentions for Bill Hocker are good ones, too, he works in tradional Britain's style, by his own definition. But he doesn't count as an argument about manufacturers in the 30s and 40s; I think he was playing with Britains back then

To Peter's point-he's describing just the sort of small manufacturers, almost cottage or garage industry, that have made up a large part of the variety of toy soldier manufacturers, if not of the sales volume, over the years. I think most of them tend to produce as long as sales pay for their overhead, and until they're ready to retire from their second job.

Prost!
Brad

 

[VIRIATO]

We have had several American toy soldier companies that produced "new toy soldier " type metal soldiers. Jack Scruby of California, Quartermaster Corp in the Midwest and Gorton soldiers from Arizona which are all gone. Currently we have Nicholson of Ohio and my favorite William hocker of California.All have been small cottage industries. Not aware of a major large toy company that produced anything other than plastics since the 50s.

America can produce toy soldiers but our labor laws and wage rates would make anything that requires a significant amount of skilled hand work very expensive.



I would add the wonderful Tedtoy and Edmund's, they come to mind right now. Oh, yes, how about Somerset? I wouldn't trade any of their Lawrences for any Britains ones ( I don't own any, presently, recently lost on E-bay when bidding on a Somerset one ).

Paulo


Paulo

 

[trooper]

I think there's a reason that many of the US based (Hocker) and UK based toy soldier companies only sell directly to customers without a dealer network. To make up for the wage differential they need to keep every penny they can, and selling at wholesale just doesn't work.

I think that for now the only soldiers we'll see manufacturered in US/UK/Aussie countries will be made by small companies that can keep all the profits at home. This isn't a recipe for competing with 'the big boys,' but may help a small player to do ok.

Another factor is the greed of some dealers. I don't know the situation in America, but over here most makers work on a one third discount, giving the dealer a 50% mark up. I know of several dealers who DEMAND a 50% discount which is just not viable for a one man business. After all, who in their right mind is going to work to double their production to make the same amount of money?

 

[Rutledge]

Another factor is the greed of some dealers. I don't know the situation in America, but over here most makers work on a one third discount, giving the dealer a 50% mark up. I know of several dealers who DEMAND a 50% discount which is just not viable for a one man business. After all, who in their right mind is going to work to double their production to make the same amount of money?

I dont know that Id characterize it as greed. A 100% mark up is fairly standard practice in the retail industry.

But we may see some economic paradigm shifts in the years ahead, as the situation unfolds. Who knows?

In difficult times, sometimes there is greater nationalism. That is, people purposely avoiding foreign made products. That could open some here to before not open doors.

 

[Lewey Gun Vick]

You think they could design some kinduv machine to do what like an assembly line can do. Anyone who designs that is gonna be rich !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Vick

 

[eborris]

Probably not if it was cheaper to make them here, not likely though.