Conte's Rome at War (3 Viewers)

[Scott]

While I'm not a reader of the classics, I did search The Battle of the Teutoburg Forest, assuming that this is what Conte is producing, sampling modern interpretations of Germanic costume as interpreted by current model makers, war gamers, reenactors, and uniform plate artists. Trousers and shirts appear to be the overwhelming interpretations with bare chests and trousers next. We might take into consideration that Roman historians may propagandize their enemies as more "barbarian" than themselves. Also considering the liberties with the Barbarian Queen and other Hollywood female figures Conte makes, I was suspicious of the "Kull the Conqueror" gets ups.


Nothing I have seen or heard from Conte has ever indicated that they were doing Teutoburger Wald.
I assume it is fairly safe to say that they are not since they entitled this series Winter Games and all figures shown to date have snow on the bases and everyone wearing cold weather outfits.
Roman buffs know that the battle of Teutoburg Forest took place during the Summer with September 9th as the generally accepted date. If Conte intended this to be the specific battle you reference I would fathom a guess that they would have shown the Romans with bare legs and sandals and would not have put snow on the base.

We've discussed the Barbarian woman and her get-up and beauty before so I won't bore other members with a rehash of all that other than to reiterate I like Conte ladies and find them to probably be the best female sculpts in the industry. Not sure what you are referring to as 'Hollywood female figures' as other than the lady figure in the War Lord plastics I don't know of any Hollywood or movie based figures which they have made. I have seen photos of a Janet Leigh figure from The Vikings but sadly I don't think she has ever been available for sale. That said, the photo looks very much like the star. I hardly think the Saxon woman in the Wrath of Big Red Viking set who is a rather formidable lady can be deemed Hollywoodesque

If these figures aren't the Teutoburg fight, what winter campaign is being produced that needed these furry pantsless men?
Even Otzi the "iceman" from 3300 BCE had winter leggings to his snow suit.

The Big Red figure has clothing that approximates a simple shift garment so no foul there. No problem with the Mariette Hartley peasant dress in the plastic War Lord range. It's a simple shift and at least correct to the movie costume.

The "Hollywood" -esque females (and I don't just mean large busts) are the 1800 something Zorro lady with pistol fighting Indians in 1760, the pirate girl in a thong, and the Vegas showgirl Western saloon girl. The Brigitte Bardot from Shalako is nice but it's a movie costume.

 

[Scott]

Very happy to see you sharing some of these Tacitus lines with everyone as you saved me having to go look them up. They seem pretty clear and in keeping with my memory of them. The comments re furs and nakedness seem pretty direct and on point . The comment about very few wearing corselets is something I had forgotten but pretty much indicates few wore 'shirts'. The comment about them being void of all apparel introduced by commerce I think speaks directly to their not being too Romanized in dress. All in all, one might conclude that Conte has put too much clothing on if we are to listen to Tacitus.

I relooked at a review of Germania by Tacitus and the author reminded me that Tacitus (unlike most Roman authors) was PRO the Germans and their way of living and actually very critical of how the Romans were living. Point here is that I withdraw my prior agreement with you that Tacitus probably was biased in a negative way. According to the scholars it twas the other way round.

You do have to take into consideration translations of "naked" plus whether Tacitus actually saw these folks or was going by reports. The Conte wrap-around furry loincloths and vests on the few figures in question look more like Frazetta's art than Tacitus.

 

[LordAnhausen]

Re: Conte

If these figures aren't the Teutoburg fight, what winter campaign is being produced that needed these furry pantsless men?
Even Otzi the "iceman" from 3300 BCE had winter leggings to his snow suit.

The Big Red figure has clothing that approximates a simple shift garment so no foul there. No problem with the Mariette Hartley peasant dress in the plastic War Lord range. It's a simple shift and at least correct to the movie costume.

The "Hollywood" -esque females (and I don't just mean large busts) are the 1800 something Zorro lady with pistol fighting Indians in 1760, the pirate girl in a thong, and the Vegas showgirl Western saloon girl. The Brigitte Bardot from Shalako is nice but it's a movie costume.

Somehow I knew you'd like Big Red. Me, I prefer the yet to be released Barbarian Queen. But I will buy both as I think Big Red might do duty as a Barbarian woman as the scholars say that the women often fought alongside the men.
I also love the upcoming saloon dancehall lady; looks like a terrific sculpt and just the way I'd hoped somebody would make a saloon girl. And I forgot I have a preorder in for the explorer lady with pith helmet(thanks for jogging my memory). The pirate ladies to my knowledge have nothing to do with anything Hollywood. I have the three figure Pirate Women set and quite like it although the pose you reference is my least favorite of the three. I have heard from 2 collectors that the lass firing pistol and wearing the boots was modeled after Mrs. Conte so I suspect Conte's designs are probably based upon actual people rather than some unrealistic vision. I'm going to see if I can find a pic of Mrs. C

 

[LordAnhausen]

Pulsum a mortuus equus

If these figures aren't the Teutoburg fight, what winter campaign is being produced that needed these furry pantsless men?
Even Otzi the "iceman" from 3300 BCE had winter leggings to his snow suit.

The Big Red figure has clothing that approximates a simple shift garment so no foul there. No problem with the Mariette Hartley peasant dress in the plastic War Lord range. It's a simple shift and at least correct to the movie costume.

The "Hollywood" -esque females (and I don't just mean large busts) are the 1800 something Zorro lady with pistol fighting Indians in 1760, the pirate girl in a thong, and the Vegas showgirl Western saloon girl. The Brigitte Bardot from Shalako is nice but it's a movie costume.

Why the continued red herring discussion of Teutoburg? Are you now saying that if Conte isn't depicting this battle that he shouldn't be making Barbarians at all? Just when you were admitting that 'maybe' the descriptions by the ancients justified what Conte was doing with this series and after being told that Teutoburg was a Summer battle, you still want to go back and beat a dead horse.

Rome had troops and campaigns all along the frontiers of Empire for close to 400 years.
I understand you stated you were not a student of the Classics but even so I'd hope you'd admit that campaigns and military action occurred from time to time and that forts were built all across Germania. One Roman general was even given the honorific name of Germanicus for all of his many
victories against the German tribes.

 

[Scott]

Re: Conte

Somehow I knew you'd like Big Red. Me, I prefer the yet to be released Barbarian Queen. But I will buy both as I think Big Red might do duty as a Barbarian woman as the scholars say that the women often fought alongside the men.
I also love the upcoming saloon dancehall lady; looks like a terrific sculpt and just the way I'd hoped somebody would make a saloon girl. And I forgot I have a preorder in for the explorer lady with pith helmet(thanks for jogging my memory). The pirate ladies to my knowledge have nothing to do with anything Hollywood. I have the three figure Pirate Women set and quite like it although the pose you reference is my least favorite of the three. I have heard from 2 collectors that the lass firing pistol and wearing the boots was modeled after Mrs. Conte so I suspect Conte's designs are probably based upon actual people rather than some unrealistic vision. I'm going to see if I can find a pic of Mrs. C

I have to add that people throught out history found each other attractive in the styles that they wore at the time. Movie costumers often make the mistake that audience will not find the actors attractive in "funny" clothes and adapt period styles to current tastes. Westerns are notorious for that as are 1600s and 1700s films. Richard Lester's 3 Musketeers films cured that problem as well as the recent Marie Antoinette film. The British and Europeans make historical films with good costuming.

Miniature sculptors do make fantasy figures in a mythical past but when it's a specific time and place, sculptors should attempt to make a female figure "attractive" in that time period so that the collector learns something besides just having a pretty dust collector. While the boots and pistol figure may be sculpted as a portrait it's meaningless when it's sold as a female on the New York frontier in the 1760s who looks and wears nothing like documented styles of the time. I have seen an earlier incarnation on the Conte site of that figure in a Zorro setting looking something like Catherine Zeta Jones in boots and torn robe. Another issue is taking actual historical persons and making them comic book action heroes when it's well documented what they did. The Conte Sergeant Rock NY Zouaves come to mind.

The subject of the barbarians is that there is documentation could be used that other miniature makers have used to and come up with Germanic figures looking quite different from the figures I took issue with.

 

[Scott]

Re: Pulsum a mortuus equus

Why the continued red herring discussion of Teutoburg? Are you now saying that if Conte isn't depicting this battle that he shouldn't be making Barbarians at all? Just when you were admitting that 'maybe' the descriptions by the ancients justified what Conte was doing with this series and after being told that Teutoburg was a Summer battle, you still want to go back and beat a dead horse.

Rome had troops and campaigns all along the frontiers of Empire for close to 400 years.
I understand you stated you were not a student of the Classics but even so I'd hope you'd admit that campaigns and military action occurred from time to time and that forts were built all across Germania. One Roman general was even given the honorific name of Germanicus for all of his many
victories against the German tribes.

We're getting crossed in the mail here on the Teutoberg battle.^&confuse
It must be that collectors are posing them in the forest for photos, although with snow on the ground it can't be the 9 CE battle.What the heck are these furry pantless figures supposed to represent and when? Wouldn't a collector like to point to figure and say that that is a certain tribesman on a certain campaign in a certain year if a visitor asks if they are Vikings or cavemen?

 

[marco55]

Of the Romans it seems that most Roman toy soldiers are dressed the way Conte,FL,and CS has portrayed them.In the movies Gladiator,Centurion and The Eagle they are dressed this way as in older movies.What period were they dressed this way?I know they were outfitted differently in Caesar's time and I know thet dressed differently in the late empire.Of course the empire lasted 1000 years so the uniforms were different at different periods.I think most people that are not informed think the Romans dressed this way all the time.I know I use to^&grin
Mark.

 

[LordAnhausen]

Re: Pulsum a mortuus equus

We're getting crossed in the mail here on the Teutoberg battle.^&confuse
It must be that collectors are posing them in the forest for photos, although with snow on the ground it can't be the 9 CE battle.What the heck are these furry pantless figures supposed to represent and when? Wouldn't a collector like to point to figure and say that that is a certain tribesman on a certain campaign in a certain year if a visitor asks if they are Vikings or cavemen?

I feel no confusion on my part so have no idea what you are referring to. I also fail to understand your reference to being crossed in the mail as my posts are posted and complete and hours later you respond.
I've consistently made clear my views that Conte is obviously NOT doing Teutoburgerwald yet you keep wanting to bring it up until this latest post
I have made clear that everything Conte has sent out or put on their web page has referrd to WINTER Games and that their figures all show snow on the bases. I will reiterate for the last time( and I hope you will check your sources) that classical authors state the battle was on or about September 9 aka during the SUMMER.
Despite all of our past discussion you now seem to change position 180 degrees again and now agree that this in not Teutoburg that Conte is attempting to recreate. So weseem to have made some progress.
The writings of Caesar, Tacitus and Pliny are the closest we come to contemporaneous accounts.
These are pretty clear in their original form or when referenced and used by other authors. Animal skins, furs and nakedness abound in ALL of the historical descriptions. These famous men and their accounts are still used by scholars today. Pliny actually served on the German frontier for 10 years or so and his observations were very likely utilized by Tacitus.
Against these respected historical opinions, we have your opinions which you are absolutely entitled to.
After hearing you out, I'll go with the silly and biased accounts of Caesar and Tacitus and others until you publish your competing analysis and have it accepted by colleges and universities. I wish you luck.

 

[LordAnhausen]

Re: Pulsum a mortuus equus

We're getting crossed in the mail here on the Teutoberg battle.^&confuse
It must be that collectors are posing them in the forest for photos, although with snow on the ground it can't be the 9 CE battle.What the heck are these furry pantless figures supposed to represent and when? Wouldn't a collector like to point to figure and say that that is a certain tribesman on a certain campaign in a certain year if a visitor asks if they are Vikings or cavemen?

Apparently some collectors , like you, want figures labeled for specific times and places.

I fall into the other category of collectors who enjoy studying the history of the periods I collect and like to think I can use the figures I purchase as I see fit . I think the beauty of these Romans and Barbarians is that they can be used as different Legions and different tribes and in different battles or skirmishes throughout a 400 year period. Personally I am planning on using them with some Aurelian campaigns which interest me or with my Conte Roman Galley in some naval action on the Rhine. I dont see the point in limiting these figures to a specific event or battle nor do I need a manufacturer telling me how I must display or use them. I guess it's a bit like the difference between liking to 'paint by numbers' instead of painting an original picture. To each his own.

 

[LordAnhausen]

Re: Conte

I have to add that people throught out history found each other attractive in the styles that they wore at the time. Movie costumers often make the mistake that audience will not find the actors attractive in "funny" clothes and adapt period styles to current tastes. Westerns are notorious for that as are 1600s and 1700s films. Richard Lester's 3 Musketeers films cured that problem as well as the recent Marie Antoinette film. The British and Europeans make historical films with good costuming.

Miniature sculptors do make fantasy figures in a mythical past but when it's a specific time and place, sculptors should attempt to make a female figure "attractive" in that time period so that the collector learns something besides just having a pretty dust collector. While the boots and pistol figure may be sculpted as a portrait it's meaningless when it's sold as a female on the New York frontier in the 1760s who looks and wears nothing like documented styles of the time. I have seen an earlier incarnation on the Conte site of that figure in a Zorro setting looking something like Catherine Zeta Jones in boots and torn robe. Another issue is taking actual historical persons and making them comic book action heroes when it's well documented what they did. The Conte Sergeant Rock NY Zouaves come to mind.

The subject of the barbarians is that there is documentation could be used that other miniature makers have used to and come up with Germanic figures looking quite different from the figures I took issue with.

Again, not quite sure how or why we've drifted so far afield. I am in the Conte Rome At War thread, or at least thought I was and I have no desire to ruin this thread for others by discussing British filmmakers versus American, films depicting the 1600's vs other periods,
the highs and lows of Richard Lester's directorial abilities or what beauty meant to different peoples during different historical periods. All interesting topics but probably best served in a different thread.
Have no idea why we are discussing Zeta Jones now when I had referenced a pirate lady allegedly based upon Mrs. Conte? Or a Sgt Rock somehow involved with NY Zouaves? It seems rather than respond to my points or to support your own, you move the discussion to a different topic.

 

[The Military Workshop]

Not sure if it helps the discussion any but I thought thsi series was meant to remind us of opening winter battle scene of
Gladiator movie.

 

[Scott]

Re: Pulsum a mortuus equus

"............................
After hearing you out, I'll go with the silly and biased accounts of Caesar and Tacitus and others until you publish your competing analysis and have it accepted by colleges and universities. I wish you luck.

Lord, I've been addressing several or your posts on this subject so that's the "crossed" issue. OK, not Teutoberg.

As this discussion has gone along I'm still not convinced that the figures in question reflect how other modern artists, model makers, and even reenactors are interpreting Germanic clothing. I have even found a reference to clothing found in a bog from that time as a source for how Germanic clothing is interpreted. That period of Germanic history I find was used for cultural pride in the 19th Century German Unification so add that to the mix of research or fiction of Germanic dress interpretation.

When I have seen the "Barbarian Queen" figure planned for this series in furry strophiumand subligaculum, I wonder at the research for the pantsless figures in question. Would not anyone do this before buying these figures?

Colleges and universities are not making expensive miniatures for sale so that's not their direct interest. I'm just a lowly Quality Technician with a BA in History and 50 years or more collecting and painting miniatures so I'm curious.

 

[Scott]

Re: Conte

Again, not quite sure how or why we've drifted so far afield. I am in the Conte Rome At War thread, or at least thought I was and I have no desire to ruin this thread for others by discussing British filmmakers versus American, films depicting the 1600's vs other periods,
the highs and lows of Richard Lester's directorial abilities or what beauty meant to different peoples during different historical periods. All interesting topics but probably best served in a different thread.
Have no idea why we are discussing Zeta Jones now when I had referenced a pirate lady allegedly based upon Mrs. Conte? Or a Sgt Rock somehow involved with NY Zouaves? It seems rather than respond to my points or to support your own, you move the discussion to a different topic.

It looks like you mean to dismiss an attempt at debate and discussion by will full ignorance rather than address the actual figures I have referenced. I hope this is not so.

 

[The Lt.]

Returning back to featuring my Axe Wielding Barbarian taking on another one of my new Roman Legionaire.....The Lt.

 

[Scott]

Returning back to featuring my Axe Wielding Barbarian taking on another one of my new Roman Legionaire.....The Lt.

Nice Lt.! This figure has got pants and shirt. Our ancestors weren't stupid about cold weather or we wouldn't be here.

 

[The Lt.]

So have these Barbarians Scott which have been in the pipe line for some time with enough said on the subject.....The Lt.

 

[Scott]

So have these Barbarians Scott which have been in the pipe line for some time with enough said on the subject.....The Lt.

Now THESE look pretty good and not like cavemen. The fur cloaks appear to match ol' Tacitus's account.

 

[LordAnhausen]

Re: Let There Be Pants

It looks like you mean to dismiss an attempt at debate and discussion by will full ignorance rather than address the actual figures I have referenced. I hope this is not so.

Nothing could be further from the truth.We have beaten this topic to death
And im just not interested in arguing the merits of Richard Lester ,British versus Yank films
,1600's costuming, zetaJones, etc.
Tacitus, Caesar , pliny and others have spoken. So have you.
You want to discount and discredit what has been accepted as fact
For 2000 years
I respectfully disagree with your opinions
But am delighted you are at least now searching
The web for snippets of The Classics. This can only lead to positive results.

You've agreed that Conte are not doing Teutoburg
Youve agreed the historical literary giants clearly
Mentioned furs animal skins capes and bare skin.
Youve agreed that at least some of the figures are nice.

And NOW thanks to the Lt we can all celebrate
St Valentines Day with a collective chorus of "let There Be Pants"

 

[Scott]

Re: Let There Be Pants

Nothing could be further from the truth.We have beaten this topic to death
And im just not interested in arguing the merits of Richard Lester ,British versus Yank films
,1600's costuming, zetaJones, etc.
Tacitus, Caesar , pliny and others have spoken. So have you.
You want to discount and discredit what has been accepted as fact
For 2000 years
I respectfully disagree with your opinions
But am delighted you are at least now searching
The web for snippets of The Classics. This can only lead to positive results.

You've agreed that Conte are not doing Teutoburg
Youve agreed the historical literary giants clearly
Mentioned furs animal skins capes and bare skin.
Youve agreed that at least some of the figures are nice.

And NOW thanks to the Lt we can all celebrate
St Valentines Day with a collective chorus of "let There Be Pants"

Collecting historically suspect expensive toys and being snobbish about it. Jeepers! ^&grin

 

[The Lt.]

Continuing with our infamous Axe Wieldig Barbarian taking on another Legionaire.........The Lt.