Death of Wolfe - Who is Who? (1 Viewer)

[Fraxinus]

http://books.google.com/books?id=Jy...#v=onepage&q=edward penny death wolfe&f=false

Good Afternoon,

I got an private e-mail essentially asking who is who in this painting which serves as the source for QB-02, but I wanted to share some of my research. This link describes at least some of the elements within Edward Penny's painting and comes to what I think is a suprising conclusion of who is really who in the painting. Open the Contents, select chapter starting on page 91 and then go to pages 102-106 in this link. The conclusion here is that only Wolfe himself and Monockton represent identifiable individuals.

I found another source that based on Captain John Knox's journals that only 4people were with Wolfe when he died Lt. Henry Browne - Louisbourg Grenadiers, James Henderson, Colonel Williamson (artillery officer) and a private soldier.

So if push comes to shove - the kneeling figure supporting the dying Wolfe is Lt. Henry Browne, the standing Grenadier with an outstretched arm is James Henderson, the surgeon's mate is Heriot or Wilkins, the running officer is Captain Curry (not Lt. Browne).

Will have to check the Osprey sources.

I am thinking the standing grenadier is part the Louisbourg Grenadiers (45th regiment) while the kneeling Grenadier is with the 28th, but need to research and look at the figures more closely. See http://www.fifedrum.org/crfd/BD_1.htm

 

[Phantom Warrior]

http://books.google.com/books?id=Jy...#v=onepage&q=edward penny death wolfe&f=false

Good Afternoon,

I got an private e-mail essentially asking who is who in this painting which serves as the source for QB-02, but I wanted to share some of my research. This link describes at least some of the elements within Edward Penny's painting and comes to what I think is a suprising conclusion of who is really who in the painting. Open the Contents, select chapter starting on page 91 and then go to pages 102-106 in this link. The conclusion here is that only Wolfe himself and Monockton represent identifiable individuals.

I found another source that based on Captain John Knox's journals that only 4people were with Wolfe when he died Lt. Henry Browne - Louisbourg Grenadiers, James Henderson, Colonel Williamson (artillery officer) and a private soldier.

So if push comes to shove - the kneeling figure supporting the dying Wolfe is Lt. Henry Browne, the standing Grenadier with an outstretched arm is James Henderson, the surgeon's mate is Heriot or Wilkins, the running officer is Captain Curry (not Lt. Browne).

Will have to check the Osprey sources.

I am thinking the standing grenadier is part the Louisbourg Grenadiers (45th regiment) while the kneeling Grenadier is with the 28th, but need to research and look at the figures more closely. See http://www.fifedrum.org/crfd/BD_1.htm

I spoke to John Jenkins as to what he intended his figures to portray. He said he used the painting by Edward Penny c.1764, as by far the more accurate of the two most famous works.

The painting depicts a surveyor (Samuel Holland), and two Grenadiers (one is known as Volunteer Henderson). Wolfe took the Grenadier companies from 3 regiments, the 22nd , 45th and the 40th, and formed an elite shock force. This Battalion was first formed at the Siege of Louisbourg in 1758, and was used as a shock unit to storm the defences of the fortress. Wolfe was so pleased with their performance that he kept the unit together for the Siege of Quebec.

This is an image of the three uniforms of the Grenadiers from the 22nd , 45th and the 40th

http://www.cmhg.gc.ca/cmh/book_images/high/v2_c1_s17_ss01_02.jpg vs the Jenkins model http://www.toysoldiersclub.com/Toy-soldiers_JJ-QB-02_John-Jenkins-Designs.aspx

The standing Grenadier with the green lapels and cuffs is from the 45th Regiment. It is difficult to tell which regiment the kneeling Grenadier is from as the uniforms of 22nd, 40th and 48th regiments are so similar Lapels and cuffs). The mitre on the head of the JJ figure looks like gold lettering on a gold background which probably makes him from the 22nd Regiment.

Terry

 

[Fraxinus]

I agree that the kneeling grenadier is not from the 28th, clearly a buff color on the facings when you are holding the figure in your hand, not a bright yellow. In the "display photo", the cuffs on the kneeling grenadier ARE defintiely bright yellow. GGRRR!!!!! Why I originally thought it was the 28th and rejected both the 22nd and 40th regiments for this figure.

I am leaning towards the 22nd for the kneeling character, but I need to get to another site before I finalize my vote because the 40th's facings was a similar buff color. However, I do not necessarily see the need to place the kneeling grenadier in a "Louisbourg" regiment, likely, but not a necessity.

Another problem is the JJD's kneeling character does not have an officer's gorget, does any version of the painting show a gorget on the kneeling character? As for myself, I do not see a gorget. There are several different versions of the painting, some with background filled with soldiers, some without.

Phantom, any link to this Samuel Holland???

 

[Phantom Warrior]

I agree that the kneeling grenadier is not from the 28th, clearly a buff color on the facings when you are holding the figure in your hand, not a bright yellow. In the "display photo", the cuffs on the kneeling grenadier ARE defintiely bright yellow. GGRRR!!!!! Why I originally thought it was the 28th and rejected both the 22nd and 40th regiments for this figure.

I am leaning towards the 22nd for the kneeling character, but I need to get to another site before I finalize my vote because the 40th's facings was a similar buff color. However, I do not necessarily see the need to place the kneeling grenadier in a "Louisbourg" regiment, likely, but not a necessity.

Another problem is the JJD's kneeling character does not have an officer's gorget, does any version of the painting show a gorget on the kneeling character? As for myself, I do not see a gorget. There are several different versions of the painting, some with background filled with soldiers, some without.

Phantom, any link to this Samuel Holland???

Samuel Holland is the name of a large modern residential and retail complex in Quebec City. http://translate.google.ca/translat...&hs=phX&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&prmd=m

There is a wiki entry for him http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samuel_Holland

And according to the Dictionary of Canadian Biographies he was with Wolfe when he died. http://www.biographi.ca/009004-119.01-e.php?BioId=36586

Promoted captain on 24 Aug. 1759, he participated actively that summer in the siege of Quebec. He narrowly escaped death on one occasion when his boats were run down by a schooner. During the battle of the Plains of Abraham on 13 September, he returned wounded to Wolfe’s side from dangerous engineering operations only to find him dying.

Terry

 

[Phantom Warrior]

Volunteer Henderson was also with Wolfe at his death.

"Wolfe, positioned with the 28th Foot and the Louisbourg Grenadiers, had moved to a rise to observe the battle; he had been struck in the wrist early in the fight, but had wrapped the injury and continued on. Volunteer James Henderson, with the Louisbourg Grenadiers, had been tasked with holding the hill, and reported afterwards that within moments of the command to fire, Wolfe was struck with two shots, one low in the stomach and the second, mortal wound in the chest"

http://books.google.ca/books?id=1GK...=onepage&q=Volunteer Henderson quebec&f=false

Henderson is the Louisberg Grenadier holding Wolfe and I believe is from the 22nd Regiment but definitely not from the 28th.

Terry

 

[Fraxinus]

Wikipedia's entry for Samuel Holland contains a portrait that does resemble the QB-02 figure in the civilian clothes, but why would a engineer be offering Wolfe a bag? Seems more in line with a surgeon's mate.

I am leaning more and more towards James Henderson as the name of the figure supporting Wolfe and not Browne.

 

[Phantom Warrior]

Wikipedia's entry for Samuel Holland contains a portrait that does resemble the QB-02 figure in the civilian clothes, but why would a engineer be offering Wolfe a bag? Seems more in line with a surgeon's mate.

I am leaning more and more towards James Henderson as the name of the figure supporting Wolfe and not Browne.

Henderson does not have an officers gorget because he was not an officer.

Holland is holding a cloth (not a bag) to wipe Wolfe's face.

Browne (22nd Rgt.) is a Lt. in set 02a running to report the French are breaking. http://www.toysoldiersclub.com/Toy-soldiers_JJ-QB-02B_John-Jenkins-Designs.aspx Both figures are from the Louisberg Grenadiers.

Terry

 

[Fraxinus]

I am having a ton of fun here.

Based on our research and discussion, I am leaning towards the kneeling figure being James Henderson, but please look at this link for the Ed Penny's painting (it can be enlarged), there may or may not be a gorget on the figure in the painting. Very hard to tell. But leaning towards, non-officer James Henderson, and assigning him to the 22nd regiment. I would think that Alan McNairn would have referenced it in his discussion if there was no gorget on the figure.

http://www.ashmolean.org/php/makepa...&cpos=1&s1=artist&s2=mainid&s3=&dno=25#image0

The work by Alan McNairn should be at least considered --- General Wolfe and the Arts in the 18th Century. Please see the first entry into the thread. From this source, the 2nd figure in QB-02b is Monckton, page 104. In the painting, the figure is apparently holding a baton and not a gun as in John's figure. Strongly leaning towards accepting McNairn's judgment on this. This figure does not appear to be in a uniform of any of the "Louisbourg" regiments. Again, McNairn conclusion was that only Wolfe and Monckton are identifiable in Penny's painting.

http://books.google.com/books?id=Jy...#v=onepage&q=edward penny death wolfe&f=false

I am having still some doubts about the Lt. Browne identification because in West's painting, the figure supposedly representing Lt. Browne (the flag bearer) has "orange" cuffs.

More research is needed, but happy to have Monckton!!!!

 

[Phantom Warrior]

I have doubts about Monkton. He was commanding the right flank of the British line and was himself wounded in the chest. He was not present at the surrender of Quebec city because of his wound. Townsend was commanding the left flank and it was he who took command and led the troops to Quebec city. Wolfe was just to the right of the centre (held by the 47th and 43rd) and he was with the 28th and the Louisberg Grenadiers. The British line was a slightly concave line over 1 km. long. Jenkins describes 02a as Browne and an officer of the Louisberg Grenadiers and he is wearing the green lapel and cuffs of the 45th as in the painting.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Plains2009.jpg

I doubt it is Monkton or the artillery officer (Col. Williamson) whose facings would be blue, unless the lapel and cuffs in the painting are a deep blue and not green.. http://www.ashmolean.org/ash/objects/objectviews/WA1845.38.html

Terry

 

[Fraxinus]

Historically, Monckton was not near Wolfe at the time of his death, no argument here at all. The John Knox's journal states only 4 people were with/near Wolfe at the time of his death" .

Lt. Henry Browne
Colonel Williamson
James Henderson
Private Soldier

Although Penny's painting is considered to me more historically accurate than the more famous West painting. The Penny painting is not really that accurate either, but I think we can agree that the kneeling figure supporting Wolfe is James Henderson. When Edward Penny painted the scene, he simply placed Monckton in the painting. This Monckton figure is what John included in QB-02(b). McNairn's evidence that it is Monckton appears to be very solid to me.

Benjamin West's painting apparently includes only Lt. Henry Browne and Colonel Williamson of the people who were actually there at the time of Wolfe's death and then adds many individuals who were not there, but does not include Monckton. I once read you had to offer a "contribution' to West to be included in his portrait of Wolfe's Death.

Some more grenadier uniform information, unfortunately not the Louisbourg regiments.

http://www.britishbattles.com/tim-reese/morier/index.htm

The full Osprey caption for Penny's painting is: "The Death of Wolfe", Edward Penny's painting is the most accurate depiction of Wolfe's last moment. He is supported by Volunteer Henderson and attended by a surgeon's mate named Hewit. The identity of the standing grendier is unknown, but the officer bringing news of the victory is Lieutenant Hery Browne, also of the Lousiburg Grenadiers. (Ashmolean Museum Oxford).

But why is Browne not wearing a grenadier mitre?

 

[Phantom Warrior]

Historically, Monckton was not near Wolfe at the time of his death, no argument here at all. The John Knox's journal states only 4 people were with/near Wolfe at the time of his death" .

Lt. Henry Browne
Colonel Williamson
James Henderson
Private Soldier

Although Penny's painting is considered to me more historically accurate than the more famous West painting. The Penny painting is not really that accurate either, but I think we can agree that the kneeling figure supporting Wolfe is James Henderson. When Edward Penny painted the scene, he simply placed Monckton in the painting. This Monckton figure is what John included in QB-02(b). McNairn's evidence that it is Monckton appears to be very solid to me.

Benjamin West's painting apparently includes only Lt. Henry Browne and Colonel Williamson of the people who were actually there at the time of Wolfe's death and then adds many individuals who were not there, but does not include Monckton. I once read you had to offer a "contribution' to West to be included in his portrait of Wolfe's Death.

Some more grenadier uniform information, unfortunately not the Louisbourg regiments.

http://www.britishbattles.com/tim-reese/morier/index.htm

I spoke to John Jensen today. The 2nd figure in the 02a set with Browne is intended to be a Grenadier officer of the Louisberg Grenadiers 45th Rgt.

Browne arrived to deliver his message just before Wolfe died. Holland was supposed to be there as well. But how Williamson could have been there is a mystery. His 6 pdr guns were far away at the start of the battle when Wolfe was shot. And do any of the paintings show a blue coated with red facings uniform of the Royal Artillery in any of the paintings?

Terry

 

[Fraxinus]

I gave some bad information on Monckton --- Monckton is shown in West's Death of Wolfe, Brigadier Townsend and Murray are absent. I remembered it wrong.

Williamson is shown in West's picture, please see the McNairn's link and go to the page with the line drawnings identifying many of the characters (page 136?). If I remember right, Williamson is the figure to the immediate left of the flag bearer in the back. Bah, last night I was able to get deeper in the on-line link and see a line drawing for Williamson in McNairn's book.

Regardless of John's intent, he seems to have sculpted Monckton. WOOT!!! Adding him happily to the 48th Shelf in the Curio - the 48th regiment was attached to his Brigade.

 

[Fraxinus]

From the below link:

Edward Penny, or Pennee, was a founding member of the Royal Academy and its first professor of painting. Penny's original painting is at Petworth, Sussex, in the private collection of Lord Egremont.

This version of General Wolfe's death is said to be a more accurate depiction of the event than the more famous painting by Benjamin West. Only four men were said by Captain John Knox, an eyewitness, to be present at the death of Wolfe--Lieutenant Henry Brown (of the Louisbourg Grenadiers), James Henderson, Colonel Williamson (artillery officer), and a private soldier who was close at hand.

http://jcb.lunaimaging.com/luna/ser...8~1190004:The-Death-of-General-Wolfe-on-the-1

Reading this, I think we have another source suggesting the Lieutenant Henry Brown is really the standing Grenadier with the outstretched arm or the Grenadier holding Wolfe with Henderson being the other Grenadier in the Mitre Cap.

 

[Phantom Warrior]

I gave some bad information on Monckton --- Monckton is shown in West's Death of Wolfe, Brigadier Townsend and Murray are absent. I remembered it wrong.

Williamson is shown in West's picture, please see the McNairn's link and go to the page with the line drawnings identifying many of the characters (page 136?). If I remember right, Williamson is the figure to the immediate left of the flag bearer in the back. Bah, last night I was able to get deeper in the on-line link and see a line drawing for Williamson in McNairn's book.

Regardless of John's intent, he seems to have sculpted Monckton. WOOT!!! Adding him happily to the 48th Shelf in the Curio - the 48th regiment was attached to his Brigade.

Could you post a link to the page you mean - I can't find a page 136

Terry

 

[Fraxinus]

http://www.gallery.ca/bulletin/num7/stacey1.html

Terry,

This should get you to a link describing West's painting and where Williamson is in the painting, last paragraph on page 1.

 

[Phantom Warrior]

http://www.gallery.ca/bulletin/num7/stacey1.html

Terry,

This should get you to a link describing West's painting and where Williamson is in the painting, last paragraph on page 1.

Williamson should be wearing a blue artillery coat with red facings. I really feel the west painting is a political painting for financial gain and not an actual depiction of the scene. There are far to many figures in it than eyewitness accounts claim including figures who were seriously wounded or heavily engaged in the battle elsewhere.

Terry

 

[Fraxinus]

I totally agree that the West painting is highly inaccurate, a gorgeous painting, but very fictional. Penny's painting is more accurate but still suffers from inaccuracies, but not to the degree of West's painting.

But I doubt either painting was intended to be an accurate historical representation.

Like the closing seen in She Wore a Yellow Ribbon, where John Wayne is with the newspaper men and says that he saw the painting Thurston's Charge in Washington and that "it was accurate in every detail." Wayne is lying, and we the audience know he is lying.

In the end, there is no perfect answer, but for Penny's Painting, I think McNairn probably has it best.

Wolfe= Wolfe
John's Louisbourg Officer from QB-02b = Brigadier Monckton

McNairn argues that these are the only two identifiable figures in the painting, but if you have to put name on the other figures then:

Kneeling Grenadier supporting Wolfe = Lt Henry Browne (22nd Grenadiers), I believe that in the shadows a gorget may been seen around the neck of the figure in the painting.
Standing Grenadier = James Henderson (in the painting, this figure is also of the 22nd regiment). John's sculpture differs in this aspect.
Kneeling Figure in Green Coat = Surgeon Mate Hewit or Wilkins. Alternatively, the private man.

Henderson may well have held Wolfe at the end as described in Osprey's Quebec 1759, but in the painting it seems Browne is holding Wolfe --- young officer holding the dying general ..... British society etc. But no harm if you prefer to switch who is who here.

Running Figure = Captain Curry???? (No idea, who he is, least not yet).

The 4th man who is thought to be with Wolfe when he died is Williamson, head of the british artillery. But he is not depicted in Penny's painting.

 

[Phantom Warrior]

There is a recent book out on the Plains of Abraham written by D P MacLeod who is the pre-Confederation historian at the Canadian War Museum, where he curated the permanent exhibits on the Seven Years’ War and The Battle of the Plains of Abraham.

I'm going to look at his book which is full of eyewitness accounts and see if things are any clearer than what was produced by some English painters who were not even at the battle.

Terry

 

[Fraxinus]

From (see page 492 - 494, especially 494) : http://books.google.com/books?id=4uMgAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA69&dq=james+wolfe+browne&cd=2#v=onepage&q&f=false

The life and letters of James Wolfe By Beckles Willson (1909).


A third ball smote Wolfe in the breast. On he staggered a few paces, trying hard to keep his feet. The charging grenadiers swept past him. " Support me," he gasped out to Lieutenant Brown of the Grenadiers who was close behind ; "let not my brave fellows see me fall. The day is ours—keep it." Before Brown's arm could encircle his General's waist he sank down. A young volunteer named Henderson and a private soldier were close at hand; they rushed forward, and these, with an artillery officer,1 lifted up the throbbing, helpless form and carried it a short distance towards the rear. None else of all those desperate, battling men had seen. The three bearers reached a small redoubt which the enemy had held just ere dawn that day, and there they lay their stricken leader down. One proposed to run for a surgeon. "It is needless," came from the bloodless lips, " it is all over with me." Then came a stupor, and the sorrowing group thought him dead. There was a brief pause, ten seconds perhaps, when in the distance a cry was heard from a messenger sent to the rear: " They run—they ran!"
The dying General started up with the wide-open gaze of one roused from slumber. " Who run ?" he asked earnestly. Did he for a fleeting instant think his men had been by some miracle overborne by Montcalm ? "'The enemy, sir," came the answer. "Egad, they give way everywhere." At this the young hero summoned all his strength. " Go one of you, my lads," he said, " with all speed to Colonel Burton, and tell him to march Webb's regiment down to the St. Charles River, and cut off' the retreat of the fugitives to the bridge."2 He then turned on his side, and murmuring " Now God be praised, I die happy," in a few momenta expired.
1 Colonel Williamson.
9 Needless to say, Townshend, on taking command, instantly rescinded this order. This account of Wolfe's death follows Knox in every important particular. .



From another source, see footnote on page 583-584 for a discussion that Wolfe was shot by a British Soldier who he broke in rank:
http://books.google.com/books?id=xHENAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA586&dq=james+wolfe&output=text

The Life of Major-General James Wolfe: Founded on Original Documents and ... By Robert Wright, 1864

This is from page 586.

* Knox,' Journal of Campaigns," etc. London, 1769. Captain Knox appends the following note :—" Various accounts have been circulated of General Wolfe's manner of dying, his last words, and the officers into whose hands he fell; and man}', from a vanity of talking, claimed the honour of being his supporters after he was wounded. But the foregoing circumstances were ascertained to me by Lieutenant Brown, of the Grenadiers of Louisbourg and the 22nd regiment, who, with Mr.Henderson, a volunteer in the same company, and a private man, were the three persons who carried his Excellency to the rear, which an artillery officer seeing, immediately flew to his assistance; and these were all that attended him in his dying moments. I do not recollect the artillery officer's name, or it should be recorded here." Captain Knox's text may be accepted without hesitation, since he could not have invented the command for a particular corps to follow the fugitives, and since also his statement was made on the authority of an eyewitness, with the intention of correcting previous mis-statements. On the other hand, I have been favoured with a copy of a letter, written in 1803 by the centenarian Thomas Wilkins, who states that he was the only surgeon on the field of battle; that he was speaking to Wolfe about ten minutes before he received his mortal wound; and that the hero's " last and dying words were,' Lay me down, I am suffocating.'" It is needless to particularize the various other persons who, either from the " vanity of talking," or the more pardonable desire of being associated with Wolfe, have asserted that they carried him from the field, or were present at his death.