Differentiating Greek Hoplites & Spartans (1 Viewer)

[WesternOutlaw]

Hi Fellas,

Question for the history buffs and Ancient Greek collectors:

I've been admiring the beautiful shield designs of TS's Ancient Greek figures. While I realize that not all Spartans had Lambda shields, are all/most of the TS figures intended to be Spartans with various shield designs (or) can they pass for Athenian/Greek Hoplites as well?

Is there a way to differentiate aside from perhaps red cloaks?

 

[29 Let's Go]

Hi Fellas,

Question for the history buffs and Ancient Greek collectors:

I've been admiring the beautiful shield designs of TS's Ancient Greek figures. While I realize that not all Spartans had Lambda shields, are all/most of the TS figures intended to be Spartans with various shield designs (or) can they pass for Athenian/Greek Hoplites as well?

Is there a way to differentiate aside from perhaps red cloaks?

It's all Greek to me. Sorry, couldn't help myself.

Steve

 

[theBaron]

I'd approach it the other way: if you have a lambda on the shield, it most likely not a warrior from any other city-state than Sparta/Lakadaemon.

Prost!
Brad

 

[bradleyl30]

My understanding is this:

Multiple pieces of visual art, literature and surviving garment fragments support the idea that Spartans used the red cloak to signify their status as completing the phase where they are called eirenes. Which is like graduating from a military academy (West Point, Citadel, VMI, etc.) but also includes teaching in the agogue and more real world experience.

We have statements by people like Xenophon that the Spartans were more “standardized” but it isn’t clear (and is unlikely) that it would be anything close to our modern understanding (most likely we also over estimate the standardization of Rome, but it would be more recognizable to us.)

There’s also a huge difference in Sparta in the period of the late 500s and the majority of the 400 BC period compared to the 300s. Most of the Spartiates had died out and Sparta was a shadow of itself due to plagues, earthquakes and rebellions. The Spartans moved from a Spartiate army to a conscripted army led by the few Spartiates who were left. It’s unlikely most would have looked like the hoplites we know. Warfare was becoming more fluid and armor was becoming lighter and easier to move in. It was during this time we first hear their enemies mention the Lambda shield in a comedic play.

It’s quite possible that the Lambda is an insult dating to the fact that Spartan women had more freedoms and opportunities to wield power than most Greek women. It could also have multiple other lewd connotations.

It’s been a while since I researched this, but this is what I remember.

 

[bradleyl30]

My understanding is this:

Multiple pieces of visual art, literature and surviving garment fragments support the idea that Spartans used the red cloak to signify their status as completing the phase where they are called eirenes. Which is like graduating from a military academy (West Point, Citadel, VMI, etc.) but also includes teaching in the agogue and more real world experience.

We have statements by people like Xenophon that the Spartans were more “standardized” but it isn’t clear (and is unlikely) that it would be anything close to our modern understanding (most likely we also over estimate the standardization of Rome, but it would be more recognizable to us.)

There’s also a huge difference in Sparta in the period of the late 500s and the majority of the 400 BC period compared to the 300s. Most of the Spartiates had died out and Sparta was a shadow of itself due to plagues, earthquakes and rebellions. The Spartans moved from a Spartiate army to a conscripted army led by the few Spartiates who were left. It’s unlikely most would have looked like the hoplites we know. Warfare was becoming more fluid and armor was becoming lighter and easier to move in. It was during this time we first hear their enemies mention the Lambda shield in a comedic play.

It’s quite possible that the Lambda is an insult dating to the fact that Spartan women had more freedoms and opportunities to wield power than most Greek women. It could also have multiple other lewd connotations.

It’s been a while since I researched this, but this is what I remember.

Oh, there’s also an unresolved debate about whether the Spartans would wear the cloak in battle. This is depicted in art but often with helmets perched on top of heads which many assume would not happen in battle.

I don’t believe any evidence exists of chitons (tunics) being uniform.

 

[Hunter Rose]

My take is they're pretty interchangeable if we're talking around the 500 BC timeframe.

Hoplites provided their own armor and weapons, so how a Hoplite was equipped had more to do with personal preference, what armor/weapons were inherited/passed down, or what the Hoplite could afford to acquire. Shield designs were also personal, often having to do with family symbols or the gods worshipped by a family.

Like previous mentioned, in toy soldier land if it's got a Lambda shield it's probably supposed to be a Spartan. Scarlet cloaks are probably meant to be Spartan. Other than that, you can pretty much use it for whichever city-state you like.

 

[bradleyl30]

My take is they're pretty interchangeable if we're talking around the 500 BC timeframe.

Hoplites provided their own armor and weapons, so how a Hoplite was equipped had more to do with personal preference, what armor/weapons were inherited/passed down, or what the Hoplite could afford to acquire. Shield designs were also personal, often having to do with family symbols or the gods worshipped by a family.

Like previous mentioned, in toy soldier land if it's got a Lambda shield it's probably supposed to be a Spartan. Scarlet cloaks are probably meant to be Spartan. Other than that, you can pretty much use it for whichever city-state you like.

Gee, just get right to the point!

 

[Hunter Rose]

Gee, just get right to the point!

You almost had me type a huge response with on the following statement, but I didn't want to take the thread off tangent.

My understanding is this:

We have statements by people like Xenophon that the Spartans were more “standardized” but it isn’t clear (and is unlikely) that it would be anything close to our modern understanding (most likely we also over estimate the standardization of Rome, but it would be more recognizable to us.)

The Roman part especially, as it's one thing I wish was different about this hobby. All the Legionairies are exact standardized copies of each other. Same exact armor, helmets, shields, tunics. I just don't think they ever looked like that in reality. Hell, post-industrial revolution nations couldn't even keep their units uniform in WW2. I tend to think the Legions were "standardized" in that every soldier had a helmet, armor, gladius, plum and shield, but I think there would have been different colored tunics and similar but slightly different styles of helmets, armor, weapons represented. Similar, but not identical.

Just my take, and something I'm toying with putting into my Roman display.

 

[NZGary]

I am with Hunter Rose regarding standardization of uniforms and equipment in the ancient world. It is easier for toy soldier manufacturers to support the view of standard uniforms and equipment for Roman legionaries and at least standard equipment for Greek hoplites. I doubt this was the case with probably a huge degree of variation. But nobody really knows. I say to Rob use your Greeks as you see fit and enjoy playing and displaying them. I group my Conte, John Jenkins and TG Spartans together enjoying the variety that different manufactures at least bring to the display.
Gary

 

[WesternOutlaw]

Thank you all for the feedback in re. to my question. I esp. like the advice that I am good with any shield being non-Spartan except for those with the Lambda symbol.