Email response from Scott of Expeditionary Force (1 Viewer)

gk5717

2nd Lieutenant
Joined
Apr 22, 2005
Messages
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Emailed EF in regards to all us plastic collectors disappointment in the size of the WW2 figures. Scott, I presume the owner of EF emailed me the following.




Hi Gary,



Thanks for your note. Sorry to hear that our model size is not compatible with what you want.



As a model maker and business person, I have to invest much effort to design, make the tools, produce and package each of the ranges. I am an accountant by training and have been in a corporate career for many years but decided that I wanted to do something I truly loved in my remaining active years. In the pursuit of a meaningful life, having health and happiness is incomplete and has to include being contributing to our family/society/world at large. My choice of life contribution is to produce a range of model soldiers to span all history that will contribute to the excitement and vibrancy of the hobby that has given me so much pleasure for so many years. It’s understood to be taxing from a monetary perspective. However, the Chinese market for military model collection is slowly maturing. With a million men in the armed services, the potential is huge.



Frankly, I am also very disappointed that the choice that I made, in choosing 60mm to be in line with our recent ranges, has such an unexpected response from the very community that we had hoped to contribute to. The size issue was consulted on but unfortunately not properly enough, even when a few of the master sculpts were sent to be displayed on a few toy soldier shows earlier in the year.



But, such is life. We win some and we lose sum. There was a moment back when the models were being sculpted that we swayed between sticking to 54mm (matching our ACW range) or 60mm (matching our Greeks and Medieval ranges). Having too many different scales would make our model range a messy collection to collectors who like our style of models. Being a model soldier collector myself starting back in the 1960s-70s, besides model size, I was also very much affected by the style and materials of the models. Metal or plastic, flat or semi-flat or 3D, ‘wooden’ toy soldier marching or action posed, realistic or cartoonish, etc. As a result, I tended to choose a key manufacturer and stick to his products as much as I can. Airfix was mine. (Marx, Conte etc. are not available in Singapore and I have never seen one in the flesh!)



Over the years I moved from Airifx 1/72 to Airfix 1/32 (severely incomplete) to Minifigs 15mm (metal wargame miniatures) to Foundry/Perry 25mm. Each shift of size or style was driven by the need for better quality, completeness of range, and coverage of historical span. My move into production in a way is actually another shift in style and size, this time with personal investment in their creation.



My move into model soldier production was triggered by my frequent visits to China in my corporate career and getting to know some manufacturers producing Japanese animation models for the fantasy/cartoon market. It struck me as regrettable that such beautiful creations are confined to cartoons and anime subjects with nothing for the historical collectors. My company’s style then was to apply anime model making standards and technique to historical subjects. So far, the ranges that we have produced have received positive feedback from the retailers and collectors. It is a pleasure.



Being a Singaporean, our source of models when young had been Airfix. The spread of their historical subjects has been the inspiration for me ever since. My own ambition is to cover all history from the dawn of civilization to the gulf war, from the western world to the Asian countries. To achieve this, the style and size has to be consistent across the range for a pleasing effect. Much as a collector like you wanting consistency in your collection, there is a desire to build a range of products across the span of time that is consistent. It’s not just WW2 for me.



It is thus unfortunate and painful that our choice of 60mm turns out to be such a wrong one for WW2 for you and your fellow collectors. My hair is wet. Our plan is to soldier on, to do the desert campaigns and the Pacific war, and to do the necessary mechanised elements so definitive of the period: half-tracks & tanks, guns & howitzers, jeeps & jimmies, and some terrain pieces for the convenience of my collectors. It would have been so easy to do just 54mm but the die is cast.



Thanks for taking the time and effort to feedback to me. It is painful for me. To re-do the range in 54mm would double the costs and lead to tremendous waste. I am against wastage. It is now for other producers to serve the 54mm WW2 community while I, hopefully, develop a new one for the 60mm.



Nonetheless, we are both fellow hobbyists. I appreciate and look forward to hearing from you or your friends.



Cheers,

scott
 
After reading this email several times my take on this is for lack of a better term EF screwed up and they know it in regards to WW2. Further it looks as if this will be the last series that this company will be doing in WW2.
On the positive side he mentioned Gulf war, vehicles and terrain, so that's a plus.
I also appreciate the fact that he (Scott) responded almost immediately to my email. I never expected a personal reply. Almost makes me want to buy a few bags just to show him some respect. However that won,t happen. The only scenerio I see is if some one is selling these figures individually maybe a few of the kneeling poses might blend in.
Gary
 
Hi,

I like the EF 60mm figures and other makes currently out there, but I collect those figures matching the 1/32nd Airfix and Britains Deetail stature as these were the types of figures that I had as a kid and it seems to have remained with me ever since.

60mm was always a larger figure in the past like those made by Cherilea and Crescent in the 1960's

The ww2 range released by EF is quite large with several sets involved per natonality/army so its quite comprehensive. Good luck to them - wonder if their planned Napoleonics will be 54mm or 60mm?

regards
Dave
 
I think that a manufacturer has to go with the flow. If he/she is making expensive items that are in the style of military miniatures rather than toy soldiers. then they should use a compatible scale (eg, 1:30) to be compatible with similar figures. While I prefer 1:32 and 1:35, I realize that, for the most part, they are toy soldiers, not military miniatures. After all, the maker has to make their figures in a size that will please buyers and sell.

Bosun Al
 
Man, I am a bit disappointed with this situation. There was quite a difference of opinion with Ex Force Civil War figures. I am fine with them, for me they mostly mix in well enough with most others for me. Conte, not so much, and some of the larger figures in some more recent sets. The ancients fit just fine with Conte, i feel this is a great boon. When it was stated that the WWII would be 60mm, i thought i read, heard, or did i imagine, that they would be in line with the current figure sizing. So with that i bought one box each. I haven't started to assemble the figures, but after seeing the side by side comparisons, I very disappointed. They are big standing next to "BIG" figures, that i wish were smaller to begin with. Now after reading his letter, I'm perplexed, maybe it's my jingoistic upbringing, that anyone in the world who dealt with little green plastic men, would have an idea what was produced, or being produced. Is Conte, TSSD, CTS, Austin, plus any other recent maker such a small niche market?, Is there a line of other scale(s) these large dudes fit in? Wouldn't 5 minutes of looking over ebay tell you where the market is for sizing?
 
Will be good for those posting the new EF WW2 if is possible post a picture compare to other figures to see the difference..
I'm not to worry about how high a figure is as people are very short and other tall every where but more concern about how body mass look next to each other.
In my collection I can place an IDEAL or Aurburn GI's (65-73 mm) next to 60 mm Marx US/marine- infantry and look fine as any 5 foot person versus a 6 ' .
 
Will be good for those posting the new EF WW2 if is possible post a picture compare to other figures to see the difference..
I'm not to worry about how high a figure is as people are very short and other tall every where but more concern about how body mass look next to each other.
In my collection I can place an IDEAL or Aurburn GI's (65-73 mm) next to 60 mm Marx US/marine- infantry and look fine as any 5 foot person versus a 6 ' .

Yes, people change and vary, equipment does NOT! A GI M1 helmet has the same steel shell with only minor differences between producers. An M1 rifle is ALWAYS the same size no matter who carries it. So figure sizes can be tolerated, but gross mismatches in equipment cannot be.

Gary B.
Waverly, NE
 
I'm bummed. The price had me put off, but I hoped to pick up at least a set or two for my collection - maybe even put in a request for some for my upcoming Birthday or Christmas; but with the size problem... my budget and storage is too constrained to spend on these sets. I would like to support EF (and ANYONE making figures these days), I guess I will do it by buying more of their Persians or Greeks and waiting for some of their other figures to come out that I might be able to use.
 
Man, I am a bit disappointed with this situation. There was quite a difference of opinion with Ex Force Civil War figures. I am fine with them, for me they mostly mix in well enough with most others for me. Conte, not so much, and some of the larger figures in some more recent sets. The ancients fit just fine with Conte, i feel this is a great boon. When it was stated that the WWII would be 60mm, i thought i read, heard, or did i imagine, that they would be in line with the current figure sizing. So with that i bought one box each. I haven't started to assemble the figures, but after seeing the side by side comparisons, I very disappointed. They are big standing next to "BIG" figures, that i wish were smaller to begin with. Now after reading his letter, I'm perplexed, maybe it's my jingoistic upbringing, that anyone in the world who dealt with little green plastic men, would have an idea what was produced, or being produced. Is Conte, TSSD, CTS, Austin, plus any other recent maker such a small niche market?, Is there a line of other scale(s) these large dudes fit in? Wouldn't 5 minutes of looking over ebay tell you where the market is for sizing?

2015-07-26 22.56.54 (Custom).jpg2015-07-26 22.59.21 (Custom).jpg2015-07-26 23.00.31 (Custom).jpg2015-07-26 23.02.09 (Custom).jpg
 
Its unanimous,
we all know they dropped a bowling ball on the tiled kitchen floor, but the real tragedy is that they might cancel all future WWII if nothing works out!
SO, I began to think how they could solve this problem to minimize the damage.
(Because the manufacturers in our hobby are like sports stars to me, I want them to succeed)

HERE IS MY SOLUTION

(1) Release the figures "exclusively" in PLAYSETS that include both armies.
(2) Include a few oversized vehicles like the BMC SHERMAN & the new JAG PANZER IV.
(3) Target first time buyers and non-collectors of 1:30/32 and price the Playset just a little above cost just to recoup expenses.

Then get on to future WWII releases that are properly scaled to the hobby because there are a lot of us out here who were prepared to drop $300 a year on EX FORCES releases!

Loyal and Passionate Collector - The Plastic General
 
After reading this email several times my take on this is for lack of a better term EF screwed up and they know it in regards to WW2. Further it looks as if this will be the last series that this company will be doing in WW2.
On the positive side he mentioned Gulf war, vehicles and terrain, so that's a plus.
I also appreciate the fact that he (Scott) responded almost immediately to my email. I never expected a personal reply. Almost makes me want to buy a few bags just to show him some respect. However that won,t happen. The only scenerio I see is if some one is selling these figures individually maybe a few of the kneeling poses might blend in.
Gary

2015-07-27 15.49.17 (Custom).jpg2015-07-27 15.51.55 (Custom).jpg2015-07-27 15.53.12 (Custom).jpg2015-07-27 15.54.24 (Custom).jpg2015-07-27 15.56.17 (Custom).jpg Ex Force, Conte, TSSD, Weston, CTS, and an Airfix
 
Those EF guys are GIANTS! I am afraid I wouldn't have any use for them whatsoever. I hate to say it, but I think they also have a big problem with their helmets, too. The American ones are much too flat on the bottom and almost look Japanese, and the Germans' helmets look more like WW1 helmets.

I also have to agree with the guys who say they are overpriced. I know the days of 100 soldiers for a buck are over, and even 50 soldiers for $25 is a thing of the past, but $30 for 9 foot or 5 mounted doesn't seem like a good deal to me. It also concerns me that if people buy them at that price, the price for figures will rise to that level across the board. Sure, I want the companies to be successful and make money to produce more figures, but not if it prices toy soldiers out of my reach.

Reminds me of when I first returned to collecting toy soldiers back in my mid 20s and had this sinking feeling upon receiving Jamie Delson's catalog, that toy soldiers were now a rich man's hobby. Fortunately I discovered Hobby Bunker, Stad's lists and Stone Castle soon after.

If Expeditionary Force gets desperate to unload these guys and sells them off cheap I might buy a couple of sets, but otherwise I will stick to other makers.
 
Yes, people change and vary, equipment does NOT! A GI M1 helmet has the same steel shell with only minor differences between producers. An M1 rifle is ALWAYS the same size no matter who carries it. So figure sizes can be tolerated, but gross mismatches in equipment cannot be.

Gary B.
Waverly, NE

And what company did a perfect match versus other set (airfix us infantry are taller and have big-larger head and weapons compare to airfix us paratroopers with micro Tom gun and m1!!!; same in German infantry versus Ge paratroopers in same company and you can see the difference easy. Early ESCI sets of German and us paratroopers were 1:32,others come much smaller like Russians. When I say ( body mass looks is my concern) was including what the body has on (gear/helmet else. So is plain and simple .Don't look for speculation and words I did not mention in it .Yes the body of figure will have to change the size of helmet like these figures had. Neither the words in capital look too much happiness I guess!!.
German pose holding mg42 from Conte has it too short, same as happen in Britain,dulcop 60 mm has mg 42 correct length versus body but helmet heads are odd a bit. First line of CTS Germans were all disparate in helmets shape, size and arms/body anatomy in all 12 poses.
After watching poses pictures posted I can see the match and glad they are plenty.
I'm glad I can have Germans for my ideal ,auburn,tim mee and Marx 60-70 mm now with these guys, not mention elastin plastic((I have plenty) and starlux too.
I already have news of others who like them after seen pictures too. They cost more, well unfortunately time of cheap production ended, I don't see any lowering in any other ,even AIP increased no long ago and will soon again, same on those TSSD,paragon,Austin and any other coming. he two limited produced so expensive Russian set/firm sale fast and quick every time coming. So I think there are plenty good income buyers out there with out doubt. Is like those who can afford buy in macy's /kohl's every week and those who can not .
Those few trying to do any are investing their money in a very low profit hobby. I mean low ,because there so few of us in this hobby still we have seen 10 times more in last 15 years produced than any for long before.
At the end perfectionism is just an arrogance of emptiness and envy ,nothing perfect will be reach in this world. I welcome these figures as I welcome others ,they had weapons and other issues, well other companies did/hve other errors too. I bet they will work on them on future release. I have my ancient and knights from them and so far most buyers I heard are very happy with quality on those sets as well.
 
Reminds me of when I first returned to collecting toy soldiers back in my mid 20s and had this sinking feeling upon receiving Jamie Delson's catalog, that toy soldiers were now a rich man's hobby. Fortunately I discovered Hobby Bunker, Stad's lists and Stone Castle soon after.

Funny, I had the same feeling when I got Delson's catalog. He almost killed the toy soldier market, in my opinion. Were it not for the internet, it would have been virtually impossible for other companies to wedge in and save the day.
 
...At the end perfectionism is just an arrogance of emptiness and envy...

I think that's a little harsh of a judgment to make on your fellow collectors. If you like the figures and don't mind the discrepancy, that's fine, but I don't think you should judge those to whom it does make a difference. I don't think their disappointment is a sign of arrogance or envy.

Unless, of course, I misunderstand your post and that's not what you intended to say.

Prost!
Brad
 
Now, to the topic...

I'm sorry you guys are disappointed, and I can understand it.

One thing I looked for in the email reply was a mention of what market research EF may have done, in deciding to bring out this line. Something like, "We asked on the forum/some forums", "We saw how many posts talk about figures in that scale," etc. Now, as Al (I think it was) pointed out, it's a popular scale on the market, so I can see the choice. But I'm curious to know if there was anything else weighed, when making the choice.

Prost!
Brad
 
There has been much of a scale creep in the last decade. Conte and TSSD figures, while very nice, don't fit well with Marx or Airfix. 54mm was perfect for years, so why companies felt that they needed to be 60mm instead of 54, I don't understand. I don't think that these are intended to set another bar, but whether intentionally or not, we have a new height.
Still, as in most new figures or sets now, what I'll do with these is simply set them up once or twice, then put them back in the box or bag and put them away like I do with all the other new, or old, things I buy now.
 

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