'FFL Artillery Set' (1 Viewer)

[wayne556517]

Available for sale next week and
hopefully on display at the Maison Militaire stand in London Saturday 5th December.

 

[mikemiller1955]

Very nice!

 

[villagehorse]

Yes very good. Robin.

 

[Obee]

Nice little mountain gun..... I'm sure Luiz (Artillery Crazy) will LOVE this one

Interesting because I have been doing some research into FFL and artillery, and it seems that the French Metropolitan Army were the gunners.

They didn't want the 'foreign' soldiers having control of firepower !!!

They did although have Colonial Artillery, but usually manned with ex-pat Frenchmen..... Very Interesting !!

John

 

[Artillery_crazy]

Hi John and FFL collectors,

As John has pointed out, there are two things I go crazy over in our hobby, artillery and French Foreign Legion.....So John and I have been working for the better part of last and this year in order to come up with a FFL 75 Field Gun Battalion of 4 guns with ammo cassions and full garrison complements including officers, spotters, range finders and the works. So if all works well we will have ready for the parade ground inspection during the course of the first semester of 2016...
As John correctly pointed out in most of the cases the Metropolitan Army would provide the artillery support to the FFL Detachments. But having said that and upon checking several reference books on FFL History and campaigns I was able to identify that small artillery sections did exist within the FFL structure. They were not big, but did take part in fire support to the Legion troops in their incursions into the Sahara…( ref The French Foreign legion – A complete history of the Legendary Force, by Douglas Porch, The History of the French Foreign Legion by David Jordan and The French Foreign Legion by James Wellard )
Earlier on in a separate thread I have already shown a FFL detachment carrying an unassembled British mountain gun as a first sample of the type of ordnance the FFL would have at their disposal so as to fight the Tuaregs in Africa, the Chinese in Indochina ( early stage of the colonization..1800´s..)....

So you can imagine how happy and anxious at the same time I was when Thomas Gunn publicized that they would roll out FFL Artillery....

To my surprise a quick snap of the referred gun came up when the pictures of the London fair were posted.....I cannot hide two immediate reactions, one of happiness that finally the FFL mountain gun was out and immediately after that sadness.....
Why sadness?……..well it is explained by the fact that although Thomas Gunn has gone to a great extent to mention….” Although not readily available to the Legion, artillery as and when it when it could be procured including various mountain guns of all nationalities, were pressed into service as well as heavier artillery pieces. The advantage of mountain artillery is that it can normally be dismantled and stowed on pack animals or can even be manhandled from one position to another by the crew..” And then some of the most common mountain guns they would use were the 2.95 inch British Mountain Gun 1890 model, as well as the French MM 108 Schneider Ducrest 65 MM Mountain Gun amongst others procured from Belgium and other countries, more than ever they would be as with other armaments hand downs from the Continental Army as surplus stocks and or spoils of war...But for sure I can say they never reached out to the Imperial Japanese Army so as to acquire any ordnance….
I say that because based on the sequence of pictures I am including here, for they speak for themselves, you can see that the barrel,the breach, the recoil system ( structure under the barrel that encapsules the ' floating piston' - this is what cushions the recoil and also stores up energy to return the gun when the recoil has ceased....given that the spade is missing the poor Legionnaires are in for a heck of a surprise as the gun kicks back.....{sm3}), the cart, the chase and swell of the muzzle are identical to the WW2 Japanese mountian gun. Unfortunately instead of Thomas Gunn actually going after a real mountain gun used by the French Army in the period of late 1800s- early – mid 1900s, they adapted the Japanese WW2 Type 41, 75mm Mountain gun that they already had in production, took the shields off, did away with the gunner and layer seats and took away the second section of the tubular trail and the recoil spade and called that a FFL Mountain gun………Why not spend a little more budget money and come with the mould of a historically accurate gun????
Having said that, this lack of historical accuracy is what made me sad…..It is very unfortunate that it has happened and they should advise the less detailed focused collector that this is “a mere representation of what a FFL Mountain gun would have looked like…..and not historically accurate…”
Too bad for there are a few samples of FFL Regiments using the correct field and mountain guns in films, as a great example March or Die…….Here Hollywood did their homework and got it all top notch….

Nice little mountain gun..... I'm sure Luiz (Artillery Crazy) will LOVE this one

Interesting because I have been doing some research into FFL and artillery, and it seems that the French Metropolitan Army were the gunners.

They didn't want the 'foreign' soldiers having control of firepower !!!

They did although have Colonial Artillery, but usually manned with ex-pat Frenchmen..... Very Interesting !!

John

 

[Artillery_crazy]

A couple more pictures….



View attachment 184072View attachment 184073View attachment 184074View attachment 184075View attachment 184076[/QUOTE]

 

[Artillery_crazy]

Picture examples of a British 2.95 inch Mountian Gun 1890´s model ( check the film March or Die - with Gene Hackman and Max Von Sydow as well as good guy Terrance Hill and the pritty lady Catherine Deneuve ) here in the battle scene you can see rare footage of not only a 2.95 inch mountain gun in action but also great takes of German Maxim guns firing...{sm4}

 

[mikemiller1955]

I'm getting the FFL gun and crew...

I wish it came with a couple of live rounds or spent shells to lie on the ground...

 

[Jack]

There are many, many ranges I wish that I had started but I think the FFL is nearing the top of my should have, could have, might have list. It is a really nice looking series.

 

[marco55]

There are many, many ranges I wish that I had started but I think the FFL is nearing the top of my should have, could have, might have list. It is a really nice looking series.

Me too.
Mark

 

[Artillery_crazy]

Thomas Gunn Team,

Upon a quick research on the proposed FFL Mountain gun that you are planing to offer and the mixing up the source of your research with the historical data sheet of an 1904 Ehrhardt design 7.5cm mountain gun, let me add that, as previously mentioned that although your offer is a direct copy of your Japanese 75mm mountian gun, I still see a way out for you to keep the type 41 as a FFL ordnance, but do not refer to it as an Ehrhardt 1904 75mm as you have done in a separate thread, but refer it to the correct name the Krupp M1908 Mountain gun:salute:::salute::....The Japanese 75mm type 41 is in fact a Krupp produced for export to the Japanese Army as you can see by the extract below and the subsequent pictures of the actual Krupp gun...." Krupp was quite open to modifying the design of its export guns to suit the needs of a customer. With the M1908 mountain gun the design was fundamentally changed to suit Japanese requirements. The resulting gun had an very long service life with the Imperial Japanese Army (IJA) even when its original role of mountain gun was superceded by more modern guns such as the Type 94 75mm Mountain Gun.1

The IJA had a preference for interrupted screw breeches so the M1908 had such - the breech design looks as if it was based on contemporary Schneider breeches. The barrel on the M1908 was longer (L/19.3) than earlier Krupp mountain guns presumably to give longer max. ranges although the gun was somewhat heavier than the earlier guns. The carriage was completely redesigned compared to the earlier mountain guns. The typical box section, or open box on the M1904, trail was replaced with tubular elements. The carriage looked like a large tuning fork in plan. The rear part of the trail which carried the spade could be folded over the front tubes. The trail design was more like that on Ehrhardt (Rheinmetall) guns than a Krupp design. The M1908 could be broken down into 6 horse loads. In part, this may reflect that the M1908 was somewhat heavier than earlier guns but may be a recognition that Asian pack horses were smaller than their Western counterparts. The gun could be man-packed by a large team and often was in rough jungle country like New Guinea.

So what you can now say is that the Legion Acquired a lot of these Krupp and not Ehrhardt design 7.5cms and you can save face on this one.......
Cheers
Artillery_Crazy

 

[Artillery_crazy]

Hi Vicky/Team and FFL friend collectors,

I know these sets shown here by me are not Thomas Gunn, but would like to share with you and the team what a French Foreign Legion field artillery battalion looked like and maybe give you ideas from which to add to your own FFL segment offerings ( that I have to congratulate you on as being very popular ).
Later on may be next year if my schedules allow me I will share a FFL Mountain gun garrison and gun of the period. For now it is a Project, just as this one was one day and now I am proud to say if has come to a fantastic conclusion.....

Cheers

Artillery_Crazy

"I am very happy that a two year old projct that I started with Obee is now concluded!....This new fantastic set started as an idea after Obee finished assembling a fantastic French Foreign Legion garrison...and me having read in excess of ten books, between reference and novels on FFL, visited some of their forts in Morrocco and come back home crazy for all FFL related ideas .........Then I went out and started scavanging for the necessary sets to build a FFL 75 battery, like the ones the FFL used in the Atlas Mountain campaigns ( Morrocco ). It was not an easy task source the parts and I have to say a lot of luck ...to be in the Market looking for the artillery pieces at the same time these rare sets were being offered around.....Parts came for the UK, USA, France and Belgium...were sent to Down Under and master Obee gave them life....
Then came the detailed research as to artillery pieces, uniforms of the soldiers and officers, the way they would sit on the guns, man the different positions loading, priming the ammunition, the ammo cassions and set up of what a gun section would look like, we used dozens of French Army period photographs....and now these sets are now here, firing the last salvo before onboarding a troopship to cross the seas to their final home in the Tropics.....
Thanks a lot Obee...
Cheers
Artillery_Crazy"

 

[wayne556517]

Artillery_crazy John has done a remarkable job on the historically inaccurate guns im led to believe French Army did not let the Foreigners in the Legion have access to this sort of artillery, it was deemed a threat to their sovereignty and so guns were manned my Metropolitan Artillery or Colonial Artillery who were all French nationals.

I’m not even that these guns would have been used in North Africa, because of the horse teams required to haul the guns and caissons across that inhospitable terrain hence your statement "a French Foreign Legion field artillery section firing away against the rebels in the Atlas Mountains of Morocco” I don’t think that you’d get field artillery up there, hence mule loaded mountain guns" !!!

But a big well done to John as i will pop over for a beer a check out your battery it does look good mate but after or the who-har you gave TGM about their piece and yours is incorrect BUT I'm prepared to stand corrected mate :salute::

 

[Obee]

i will pop over for a beer a check out your battery :salute::

Opps, you've missed them Wayne, they are packed and on the way to Brazil already, Luiz can't wait for them to arrive

Come over for a beer anyway, its sure HOT today ..... 41 c !!!! Great drying weather

John

 

[wayne556517]

Opps, you've missed them Wayne, they are packed and on the way to Brazil already, Luiz can't wait for them to arrive

Come over for a beer anyway, its sure HOT today ..... 41 c !!!! Great drying weather

John

Oh well still have a beer mate maybe Friday its only going to be 38 a cool change ^&grin^&grin

 

[Artillery_crazy]

Hi Wayne,

You will need a bit more than just a six pack of beer to swallow this one....
Yes TGM buldered big time....detailed literature and pictures were provided then to show that the research was shallow and that even details of the guns were wrong....

As to your note, I was not aware that you had any knowhow on FFL nor the landscape at which they fought...
But before endulging you on hard facts and not " I believe" as you say .......See the pictures I have attached and I guess there are no arguments against research literature and period pictures....The one of the page reads Legion gunners prepare to fire another shell as part of a bombardment during an action in the Middle East or North África ( probably Syria )........

So let me enlighten you and you will see that you spoke to early too fast and your rounds fell short of the target.....( pardon the pun )...
(1) If you pay close attention to the sets the officers are Colonial Artillery Officers, given that the FFL was eminently a light infantry troop, the Artillery Arm had FFL soldiers servicing the guns but under the direct direction of Colonial Artillery Officers ( hence they having a different uniform to those of the Legion.... )
(2) No sure were you can up with the " threat to their sovereignty bs comes from...If you could quote your source - Book title, Author and Publisher .... I will check amongst my reference books to see if I oversaw such statement......
(3)Your knowledge of filed artillery is limited.....when I mention that the section is firing away against rebels in the Atlas Mountains of Marocco....does not imply that they are actually on the ridges ...a 75 had arange of 7,700m ( 22,100ft)...hence they did not have to be breathing up the necks of the rebels....a correct mountain gun for the FFL I will show sometime later in 2017....!
(4) As to the horse teams required to haul the guns and caissons across the terrain...shows your limited " Hollywood "knowledge of what is the Nothern Coast of Africa, parts of Morocco and Syria...and the goegraphical consistence of the ground there....This is not just what Hollywood dioramas....

Hence, John has done a fantastic job as accurate as all available literature and not misleading collectors with fake artillery relaeses....

Cheers

Na enjoy the beer!

Artillery_crazy John has done a remarkable job on the historically inaccurate guns im led to believe French Army did not let the Foreigners in the Legion have access to this sort of artillery, it was deemed a threat to their sovereignty and so guns were manned my Metropolitan Artillery or Colonial Artillery who were all French nationals.

I’m not even that these guns would have been used in North Africa, because of the horse teams required to haul the guns and caissons across that inhospitable terrain hence your statement "a French Foreign Legion field artillery section firing away against the rebels in the Atlas Mountains of Morocco” I don’t think that you’d get field artillery up there, hence mule loaded mountain guns" !!!

But a big well done to John as i will pop over for a beer a check out your battery it does look good mate but after or the who-har you gave TGM about their piece and yours is incorrect BUT I'm prepared to stand corrected mate :salute::

 

[Artillery_crazy]

In case the Picture of the FFL garrison manning the 75 Quick Fire Field gun, that I posted earlier was not clear and the period photo´s caption may not be easily read this is a clearer Picture.including the mountainous landscape in the background visible in the misty air ...:salute:::salute::
Cheers
A_C

 

[Guy]

Hi Wayne,

You will need a bit more than just a six pack of beer to swallow this one....
Yes TGM buldered big time....detailed literature and pictures were provided then to show that the research was shallow and that even details of the guns were wrong....

As to your note, I was not aware that you had any knowhow on FFL nor the landscape at which they fought...
But before endulging you on hard facts and not " I believe" as you say .......See the pictures I have attached and I guess there are no arguments against research literature and period pictures....The one of the page reads Legion gunners prepare to fire another shell as part of a bombardment during an action in the Middle East or North África ( probably Syria )........

So let me enlighten you and you will see that you spoke to early too fast and your rounds fell short of the target.....( pardon the pun )...
(1) If you pay close attention to the sets the officers are Colonial Artillery Officers, given that the FFL was eminently a light infantry troop, the Artillery Arm had FFL soldiers servicing the guns but under the direct direction of Colonial Artillery Officers ( hence they having a different uniform to those of the Legion.... )
(2) No sure were you can up with the " threat to their sovereignty bs comes from...If you could quote your source - Book title, Author and Publisher .... I will check amongst my reference books to see if I oversaw such statement......
(3)Your knowledge of filed artillery is limited.....when I mention that the section is firing away against rebels in the Atlas Mountains of Marocco....does not imply that they are actually on the ridges ...a 75 had arange of 7,700m ( 22,100ft)...hence they did not have to be breathing up the necks of the rebels....a correct mountain gun for the FFL I will show sometime later in 2017....!
(4) As to the horse teams required to haul the guns and caissons across the terrain...shows your limited " Hollywood "knowledge of what is the Nothern Coast of Africa, parts of Morocco and Syria...and the goegraphical consistence of the ground there....This is not just what Hollywood dioramas....

Hence, John has done a fantastic job as accurate as all available literature and not misleading collectors with fake artillery relaeses....

Cheers

Na enjoy the beer!

ENOUGH don't you think !!!!!!!!! we know you're an expert on FFL artillery ( it's not your first lecture) : you made your point , now close the book and take a nap
guy

 

[johnnybach]

Hi Vicky/Team and FFL friend collectors,

I know these sets shown here by me are not Thomas Gunn, but would like to share with you and the team what a French Foreign Legion field artillery battalion looked like and maybe give you ideas from which to add to your own FFL segment offerings ( that I have to congratulate you on as being very popular ).
Later on may be next year if my schedules allow me I will share a FFL Mountain gun garrison and gun of the period. For now it is a Project, just as this one was one day and now I am proud to say if has come to a fantastic conclusion.....

Cheers

Artillery_Crazy

"I am very happy that a two year old projct that I started with Obee is now concluded!....This new fantastic set started as an idea after Obee finished assembling a fantastic French Foreign Legion garrison...and me having read in excess of ten books, between reference and novels on FFL, visited some of their forts in Morrocco and come back home crazy for all FFL related ideas .........Then I went out and started scavanging for the necessary sets to build a FFL 75 battery, like the ones the FFL used in the Atlas Mountain campaigns ( Morrocco ). It was not an easy task source the parts and I have to say a lot of luck ...to be in the Market looking for the artillery pieces at the same time these rare sets were being offered around.....Parts came for the UK, USA, France and Belgium...were sent to Down Under and master Obee gave them life....
Then came the detailed research as to artillery pieces, uniforms of the soldiers and officers, the way they would sit on the guns, man the different positions loading, priming the ammunition, the ammo cassions and set up of what a gun section would look like, we used dozens of French Army period photographs....and now these sets are now here, firing the last salvo before onboarding a troopship to cross the seas to their final home in the Tropics.....
Thanks a lot Obee...
Cheers
Artillery_Crazy"

Well done Luiz - for doing a ton of reading - and well done indeed to John. That's a simply spectacular set - and beautifully glossy too. Congrats to you both. jb:salute::