Finally justice, but decades late. (1 Viewer)

[Rob]

Finally Alan Turing gets a pardon for his conviction and now they should apologize for the degrading way he was treated after the War. This has been a stain on the reputation of this genius who helped win the War for the allies. I know of course society lacked the enlightenment of today but you have to ask what the authorities considered more important, the fact he developed a machine capable of intercepting secret German communications giving us the jump on their plans and movements thus helping to end the War and save this country further misery OR what he chose to do with his private parts?!:rolleyes2:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-25495315

 

[jazzeum]

I did not know, Rob, how he had been treated and unfortunately we have many small minded people around us. Times have changed, for the positive, in my view (although I'm not sure all will agree). At the very least, we should have looked the other way for the public service he rendered but things don't always turn out that way.

 

[Napoleon1er]

I recommend reading a play called "Enigma" by Floyd Dell. If only Turing could know how much he is celebrated and how the times have changed.

 

[Rob]

I did not know, Rob, how he had been treated and unfortunately we have many small minded people around us. Times have changed, for the positive, in my view (although I'm not sure all will agree). At the very least, we should have looked the other way for the public service he rendered but things don't always turn out that way.

Enforced chemical castration is barbaric isn't it, something more akin to the Nazi's and I was shocked to read it. Like you say Brad fortunately we've moved on but how truly sad and shameful this gifted man who did so much toward victory should be treated this way by his country, shameful and disgraceful .

Rob

 

[uksubs]

Finally Alan Turing gets a pardon for his conviction and now they should apologize for the degrading way he was treated after the War. This has been a stain on the reputation of this genius who helped win the War for the allies. I know of course society lacked the enlightenment of today but you have to ask what the authorities considered more important, the fact he developed a machine capable of intercepting secret German communications giving us the jump on their plans and movements thus helping to end the War and save this country further misery OR what he chose to do with his private parts?!:rolleyes2:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-25495315

Well said Rob , a shocking way to treat him after all he done for are great country

 

[Rob]

Well said Rob , a shocking way to treat him after all he done for are great country

Well said Neil, you know me I bleed red white and blue, but this was a shameful episode in our recent history, disgusting way to treat someone who gave so much.

Merry Christmas Neil.

Rob

 

[uksubs]

Well said Neil, you know me I bleed red white and blue, but this was a shameful episode in our recent history, disgusting way to treat someone who gave so much.

Merry Christmas Neil.

Rob

Merry Christmas to you Rob and your family

 

[Rob]

Merry Christmas to you Rob and your family

Sorry Neil, forgot to add to your family too, I hope 2014 sees you all have great happiness and health. :smile2:

Rob

 

[jazzeum]

When I read this article I was amazed, more like shocked, that chemical castration was offered to him as an option; rather medieval. What happened to him was not so different from people whose lives were ruined because of alleged communist sympathies or who had made a mistake when they were young of joining a fringe group. In a way it's not all that different when someone says something stupid on social media today and gets hounded. It's all mob mentality.

 

[Rob]

When I read this article I was amazed, more like shocked, that chemical castration was offered to him as an option; rather medieval. What happened to him was not so different from people whose lives were ruined because of alleged communist sympathies or who had made a mistake when they were young of joining a fringe group. In a way it's not all that different when someone says something stupid on social media today and gets hounded. It's all mob mentality.

I agree. There is something of the medieval, cruel, brutal Britain about this that is disturbing. I hope the pardon will lead to other young men treated like this also getting pardoned. A pardon may not do anything for these people these days, but at the very least its the acknowledgement that a great wrong was done to them,

Thank God we've moved on. On a slightly related topic I understand some sex offenders over here have been offered voluntary chemical castration and at least one has taken it. But that is a whole other tin of worms.........

 

[larso]

Yes, this is one of those hard to believe it happened things. Later day pardons can open cans of worms sometimes but this one is very worthy.

 

[Jack]

Yes, this is one of those hard to believe it happened things. Later day pardons can open cans of worms sometimes but this one is very worthy.

It is interesting that a pardon was granted even though the 'crime' had, in fact, been committed. Modern sensibilities have certainly altered - and it is a good thing they have - but it is an unusual decision. I supported the Australian government's investigation into VCs that should have been awarded and the decision regarding those executed by the UK for cowardice in WW 1 so I am not opposed to the 'rewriting of history' given that it is a construct in the first place.

It also raises an interesting question as to whether his contribution to the war effort (huge though it was) should play a part in the final decision. Would the injustice have been less important if he had peeled potatoes for the duration? If one person gets a pardon, should everyone? What about other miscarriages? What about victims of transportation for 'economic' crimes motivated by poverty? Another interesting point is that before 1961 suicide was illegal in the UK.

A really good discussion Rob. Something to engage with before the cricket starts.

Jack

 

[jazzeum]

You probably cannot go back and unmake the law that led to the conviction. Thus, this was the next best alternative I suppose. Had this been US law, it is possible that the conviction might have been vacated (although if he committed the alleged 'crime,' I wonder if that would be possible).

As as far as others receiving pardons, I think that was raised by the English newspaper whose article Rob posted. Yes, it would seem that others similarly situated should receive the same remedy. However, I do believe that persons like him (such as Oppenheimer) should receive a pardon for their contribution to society.

 

[Mitch]

well, we import, with impunity all our ''allegedly'' better standards of the day and try to change things that happened in a different time period, with different values, morality, socio economic and political times. It matters really not one jot what the man did the conviction if sound and based on law of the day etc should stand. It was mentioned that should pardons for all be issued and granted if we go down this road it opens a can of worms and, we change history to suit ''some'' and their palate.

Like with the VC issue of retrospective awards I think, some things should be left alone. It does however shine a light onto the manner in which we the ''respected'' allied sides used the same treatments that the Nazi's used through their regime!

We really are trying to re-write our history when it suits
Mitch

 

[Rob]

It is interesting that a pardon was granted even though the 'crime' had, in fact, been committed. Modern sensibilities have certainly altered - and it is a good thing they have - but it is an unusual decision. I supported the Australian government's investigation into VCs that should have been awarded and the decision regarding those executed by the UK for cowardice in WW 1 so I am not opposed to the 'rewriting of history' given that it is a construct in the first place.

It also raises an interesting question as to whether his contribution to the war effort (huge though it was) should play a part in the final decision. Would the injustice have been less important if he had peeled potatoes for the duration? If one person gets a pardon, should everyone? What about other miscarriages? What about victims of transportation for 'economic' crimes motivated by poverty? Another interesting point is that before 1961 suicide was illegal in the UK.

A really good discussion Rob. Something to engage with before the cricket starts.

Jack

Thanks Martin, I thought it the right decision but it's good to read all views on this. I believe sometimes when an injustice has been done we should review and make amends, it's why I was so pleased when our executed WW1 Soldiers were pardoned. (although if I had one complaint it was that perhaps those who committed criminal acts were pardoned along with those who were either suffering from Shell shock or who made their way back to their lines instead of going forward). Right decision in the end overall though.
Rob

 

[Jack]

Thanks Martin, I thought it the right decision but it's good to read all views on this. I believe sometimes when an injustice has been done we should review and make amends, it's why I was so pleased when our executed WW1 Soldiers were pardoned. (although if I had one complaint it was that perhaps those who committed criminal acts were pardoned along with those who were either suffering from Shell shock or who made their way back to their lines instead of going forward). Right decision in the end overall though.
Rob

Rob

It is a really interesting discussion. I am not opposed to the pardon just surprised. It is, of course, a symbolic act given that the man has been dead so long. It just raises so many really interesting points. To use the argument 'what about the others', as I have suggested, of course raises the point that just because you cannot right every wrong does not mean that you cannot right any. As for 'changing history', no mainstream historian would claim that history is 'fact' and that it is immutable. That kind of thinking belongs, literally, to nineteenth century historiography. History is all about interpretation - who does the interpreting, when they do it, why they do it; influences that all shape the historical narrative. I well remember having a discussion with an Old Boy of a 'prestigious' private school about a renovation of the College's Honour Boards. He argued that the errors could not be 'fixed' given that they had been there so long that they were now part of the historical record. (Advice: When talking to Old Boys about Honour Boards, do not say 'I would like to take an axe to the lot of them'. Even if you smile when you say it, they will not find it funny. Second Piece of Advice: When the get upset at that, do not try to joke your way out of it by saying 'Only joking. I don't own an axe. Burning them would be better').

If I can offer an advert for English justice, I always remember a claim that Gandhi made long, long ago. I cannot remember it exactly but it was along the lines that if you really wanted to hurt an Englishman, show him that he has been unjust. I am always pleased to see evidence of a democratic society able to look at its past and be comfortable enough with it to say 'our history has much good in it, but in this instance we were wrong' even if it was legal by the standards of the day.

Jack (who is this Martin you speak of?){sm4}

 

[Rob]

Hi Jack!

Excellent post my friend , I'm very proud that our country was indeed able to say yes we got that wrong and although its far too late to help them we are acknowledging we got it wrong. Also of course and something that's often forgotten is that in those days a death sentence for cowardice brought huge and lasting shame on a family that could reverberate for decades , especially in close knit communities where other young men were dying in service. It was not only the executed man who suffered.

Rob