Financial Meltdown (9 Viewers)

[Njja]

First this is Not a Political Discussion it was posted in the Miscellaneous

Catagory and is about the current Financial Meltdown.

Purpose was to explain to members interested what was happening.

There is enough blame to go around, it is all of washingtons fault, no one

party is completly to blame.

Bottom line is people were allowed to buy homes they could not afford and

then stopped paying for them.

Everything else is just icing on the cake.

It happened, it can be fixed, but we must not allow it to happen again!

The notion that 20% of the profits........would be given to yet another

program......shows that washington cannot be trusted.

They must know we are watching, and must be forced to act responsibility

because they will not do it on their own.

This isn't right wing or left wing or any other "Cute" term to dismiss someones

view. If we don't get this right we will be having the same discussion in 2017

when Social Security officially goes into the RED.

 

[Canadian Samurai]

“If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency, first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around them will deprive the people of all property until their children wake up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered.”

– Thomas Jefferson, Letter to Treasury Secretary Albert Gallatin (1802)

 

[Spitfrnd]

There's not supposed to be political talk on this forum.

Frankly that is a guideline that is practiced most in violation. In any event, the discussion here has not been directed at the affiliation or identity of any specific political person but rather to the class of elected officials identified by their votes on the specific causes of the problem. It is one of those "if the shoe fits" things.

All you and others have been spouting is Rush Limbaugh/Hannity nonsense. So this was all caused by the Democrats in congress? Corporate greed had nothing to do with it right? You Limbaugh/Hannity etc. devotees are a scary bunch.

Well if that is what you want to hear, that is what you will believe. Cognitive dissonance is a powerful constraint on reasoned discourse, frequently exhibited by inapt and meaningless generalization. When our government, whatever affiliation they have, states a priority and provides the mechanism for a course of action that when followed has a disastrous result, it may be said that they are "scary", as are we for letting them. As to corporate greed, that is really an oxymoron; companies are expected to make profits for their shareholders and it is natural for individuals to want to do better. Did that contribute to the excesses and extent of the insane lending policies, yes; did it cause the problem, absolute not.

If this country was truly in a time of crisis and we all had to come together like in WW2, I think we'd be doomed. You right wingers are always concerned about taxes. But it's OK if we throw a trillion dollars of tax money at Iraq. Probably the dumbest move this country ever made.

I see no need to resort to silly and inappropriate labels. That is a large part of what is wrong with the current political landscape. It is far easier to chant a label, however irrelevant, than to attempt to engage in a constructive and meaningful exchange of facts and ideas. Government, like most things, takes hard work, common sense and a true appreciation of opposing views, not knee jerk reactions generated from poll results or inflexible philosophies. Sadly, our political officials lately work hard at getting elected and re-elected and little else. Yes, I am concerned about taxes and yes, with hindsight, Iraq is a bit too similar to Vietnam. Now, we are riding a Tiger; very hard to direct and a bloody challenge to dismount. On a political note, we likely wouldn't be in this mess if there had been a better alternative to "W".

 

[damian]

Well NJJA
Are you not glad you invested so much in K and C products over the years? They seem to be holding value more than AIG or Merril Lynch

 

[Spitfrnd]

“If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency, first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around them will deprive the people of all property until their children wake up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered.”
– Thomas Jefferson, Letter to Treasury Secretary Albert Gallatin (1802)

But it will be asked, are we to have no banks? Are merchants and others to be deprived of the resources of short accommodations, found so convenient? I answer, let us have banks; but let them be such as are alone to be found in any country on earth, except Great Britain. There is not a bank of discount on the continent of Europe...which offers anything but cash in exchange for discounted bills. No one has a natural right to the trade of a money lender, but he who has the money to lend. Let those then, among us, who have a monied capital, and who prefer employing it in loans rather than otherwise, set up banks, and give cash or national bills for the notes they discount.

(Letter to J.W. Eppes, 1813). THOMAS JEFFERSON ON DEMOCRACY 77 (S. Padover Ed. 1953).

 

[Gideon]

You guys see the new spending bill just passed? It's pretty bad.

Another $25B in "low interest loan" to auto makers to FINALLY design better hybrids and alt energy vehicles - like the billions they received under Clinton only to concentrate on SUV's.

Roughly 60% o f the $634B budget is for military and homeland security and this will hold us over till March 6th.

 

[Njja]

Well NJJA
Are you not glad you invested so much in K and C products over the years? They seem to be holding value more than AIG or Merril Lynch

Ha! Interesting point!

Back in the 1980's I begain selling off duplicates first of Dinky Toy's, and

Lionel, then Smith Miller, K & O, Model Kits....you get the idea.

And I reached a point where the collection was no longer a negitive asset.

Now its quite nice, what ever shows up only gets an "Oh thats Nice" from

the wife instead of a "What did you buy now"!

When you add my Triumph Bonnevilles 5 come and gone over the last few

years and Harley Davidsons 5 with 2 still resting quietly.

I'm a lucky man!

Which is why I encourage people to allow their collections to help finance

their new purchases.

Only makes sense to me.

 

[Njja]

You guys see the new spending bill just passed? It's pretty bad.

Another $25B in "low interest loan" to auto makers to FINALLY design better hybrids and alt energy vehicles - like the billions they received under Clinton only to concentrate on SUV's.

Gideon:

Loan is a much better term then Grant!

Car companies Ford & GM (both of which I hold)........Hmmmm perhaps

I can trade the holdings to Andy for 1 Dragon Wagon

Have more cash on hand then they borrowed

But their debt......$209 Billion.......is the problem.

 

[Canadian Samurai]

The North American automakers have one shot to regain their market share, by leading the way on the switch to electric vehicles. If they don't do this they're toast.

 

[Spitfrnd]

The North American automakers have one shot to regain their market share, by leading the way on the switch to electric vehicles. If they don't do this they're toast.

Yes now I can hardly wait to get my hands on one of those electric muscle cars or trailer pulling bemoths. Then I can gleefully calculate the fossil fuel displacement derived from the coal plants generating the electricity to recharge them. Frankly it is not the lack of electric cars that has nearly made the NA automakers extinct; it is making relatively poor cars for the price (with the exception of some trucks). Incidentally, I have no taste for SUVs but they did sell well. I guess that was a Ford/GM plot.

 

[Njja]

The North American automakers have one shot to regain their market share, by leading the way on the switch to electric vehicles. If they don't do this they're toast.

Electric certain is the way to go......especially when you consider:

Weight of Batterys......which must be hauled around!

Replacement Costs! When batteries wear out!

On the plus side electric motors are nearly bullet proof, and can with

proper gearing provide plenty of power!

Ah.....are they going to provide "Lounge Areas" at service stations when

you pull in for a quick 4 hour recharge?

 

[Njja]

Newest GEM in Financial Bailout:

"Project Acorn"

They want no less then 20% of Profits to go into this

Community Organization Gem to "Spread the Wealth"

"Project Acorn" is currently under investigation for:

1. Misuse of Public Funds
2. Voter Fraud
3. Embezzlement

As reported by NY Times!

Seems like a reasonable place to put our money!

Nice to know they plan to make a profit........wonder why they don't want

to put it into a program for all like "Social Security"?

There I go........thinking again!

 

[Rutledge]

How long do you think before the real crash takes palce?
Gideon

Nobody has a crystal ball - including me. But I think this time is not too different than what we have gone through at other times in US history: EXCEPT, its like having the Cuban missile crisis, Great Depression, Vietnam war and 70's gas shortages all rolled into one (1!) time period! I mean, my lord, can the news get any worse????

I do believe the US system will ultimately survive - despite these many challenges. Perhaps it is just capitalism doing its thing - you know, creative destruction - only on steroids.

The S&P 500 was created in 1957 and since then almost 1000 companies have been added or deleted from/to it. We americans perceive our system to be highly stable but its really not. Frankly, our system is inherently unstable, which is why it works. By experiencing many small INSTABILITIES, on an ongoing basis, we have a system that, from a "whole enchilada" standpoint, is ultimately MORE stable. If that sounds like reverse knucklehead logic, well...

Of course recent events would tend to refute my theory. However the reason for the meltdown is that the normal market forces were manipulated in a way so that they were not allowed to work. Through financial "engineering", a false sense of stability was introduced to the system that appeared to "diversify" away all risk. That ultimately proved to be a house of cards. (tell you something you dont already know, huh?)

There are many parties to blame, IMO, but most of it belongs squarely on Wall Street and its really smart quant geek. Their mullt-factor models and fancy computer-based algorithims SOUNDED so wonderful. If only somebody had stood up and said "When something sounds too good to be true, it probably is."

Actually, Warren Buffett did. He was one of the few to call "BS" from the beginning. He labelled the "highly complex financial instruments .. time bombs and financial weapons of mass destruction" when everyone else saw them as the new tools of an unbreakable financial system. Always listen to Warren!

 

[theBaron]

...There's not supposed to be poltical talk on this forum...

I think it's up to the moderators to decide whether this thread has violated the forum's rules.

...All you and others have been spouting is Rush Limbaugh/Hannity nonsense...

I don't listen to Rush Limbaugh or Sean Hannity, but perhaps you do. Is this what they're saying?

...So this was all caused by the Democrats in congress? Corporate greed had nothing to do with it right?...

I think this thread shows a rough consensus that there is more than enough blame to go around, and that there is no one scapegoat, but also that it was Congress-both sides of the aisle-that passed laws that loosened lending and financing standards, which created the environment in which this situation could occur.

...You Limbaugh/Hannity etc. devotees are a scary bunch...

See previous comment. I can't speak for the others, but I listen to Dennis Prager's and Michael Medved's shows. In my opinion, the difference between Prager and Medved, and Limbaugh and Hannity, is the difference between serious newspapers, like the Washington Times, or, OK, the NY Times, and a McPaper like USAToday or any other Gannett paper.

...If this country was truly in a time of crisis and we all had to come together like in WW2, I think we'd be doomed. You right wingers are always concerned about taxes. But it's OK if we throw a trillion dollars of tax money at Iraq. Probably the dumbest move this country ever made.

That is probably the most political statement made in this thread.

Prost!
Brad

 

[jazzeum]

I think this thread has, in fact, violated the rule that we avoid political discussion. I'm not going to go back and edit all prior pages but will enforce it going forward and I've deleted/edited a few posts already. Some will say that this is in the Miscellaneous section. However, that rule applies to all sections of the Forum. Before you kill the messenger, I've discussed this with Shannon but she would prefer to avoid political discussion.

 

[theBaron]

Thanks, Brad! I think we can all agree that that's fair, and I don't think anyone thinks ill of you or Shannon for it. We all know and agreed to the rules.

A sports analogy, if I may--we're on the gridiron, there's a rule book, and you're the referee. The game can't be played without you, to make sure play is fair. Otherwise, it's anarchy.

BTW, sorry about your Mets. Well, not really THAT sorry. And I'm really glad that Sabathia pitched yesterday. That means the Phils probably won't have to see him until Game 3, unless the Brewers have him go on 3 days' rest and start Game 2.

Are you going to get some Shea dirt?

Prost!
Brad (the other Brad)

 

[Combat]

On the electric cars, interesting to note that the car manufacturers fought tooth and nail several years ago in California to have a requirement repealed that they must sell a certain percentage of electric cars. One reason is that there is little or no maintenance required in comparison to the combustion engine where autodealers make tremendous profits. Once the initial requirements were repealed the automakers forced every individual who had leased an electric car to return them - whether they wanted too or not. The cars were then destroyed. The news folks had video of these cars being carted off and crushed at some remote location. The purpose was to discourage the sale and knowledge about such cars. Imagine that - actually discouraging sales of your own cars.

The oil and car companies also create bogus entities with names that make them sound like unbiased consumer groups and then spread a lot of false information about these cars. Most of which is believed. Almost funny. The tobacco companies have tried many of the same tactics. So don't expect these guys to take the lead unless they are forced to do so.

 

[Njja]

As the person that Started this Thread the Original Intent was to inform

everyone what was happening.

It is not intended to be Political as Washington in General is at Fault.

So lets not just place blame, let us open our eyes and Demand to know what

is happening.

I spent last night reading all 102 pages of Nonsense and found hidden the

provision that Various Housing Agencies acting in the best interest of

the homeowners had the ability to reduce interest rates and FORGIVE mortgages.

Can you image that........FORGIVE A MORTGAGE?
You get up every morning and go to work and pay your bills......and the

very people that begain this mess by not paying their bills are going to be

given......at the discretion of the Very Agencies that put them in these homes

A FREE HOME!

Sorry not in my America, everyone has the right to work hard and buy a

home...........NOT BE GIVEN ONE!

On Our Dime!
THANK GOD THIS NONSENSE WAS REJECTED!

 

[Njja]

Just in case you don't believe me this is taken directly from page 28 of

the Bailout Bill:

HOPE for Homeowners Program
11 under section 257 of the National Housing Act or
12 other available programs to minimize foreclosures.
13 (2) MODIFICATIONS.—In the case of a residen14
tial mortgage loan, modifications made under para15
graph (1) may include—
16 (A) reduction in interest rates;
17 (B) reduction of loan principal; and
18 (C) other similar modifications

So if someone paid $400,000 for a home they can't afford perhaps they could
afford it for say $180,000.........no how about $120,000 or maybe $80,000

Why not? The American Taxpayer is picking up the bill!

The Bill early on page 13 states:

1 (1) protecting the interests of taxpayers by
2 maximizing overall returns and minimizing the im3
pact on the national debt;
How are you going to forgive principal in a mortgage you purchased and protect our overall return?

Even if you purchased a $400,000 mortgage at 50% you have $200,000 invested.......if you forgive the principal say down to $100,000 the American
Taxpayer lost $100,000.

So many people are contacting their Congressmen you cannot get through!

I have though spoken to and written to both my Senators!

Its a tough fight be we are hanging in there!

 

[Njja]

I don't know, perhaps offer insurance such as the FDIC on these Securities.

to make them again saleable.

Have Actuaries set the premiums then Fund the Agency (to be repaid)

moving again.

I don't want to hear about REDUCING PRINCIPAL on anyones Mortage!

Now they are talking about a new plan to offer

"Assistance on Main Street" with a price tag of 950 BILLION!

What is that going to include?

A Free House + $250,000 for each DEADBEAT?

Not with my Tax Dollar!:eek:

Sorry........I'm taking a Vallium

or

Another Hersey's with Almonds......and a Coke while I can still afford one!