Forces of Valor and swastika (3 Viewers)

Swastikas, Hackenkreus, or Rolling Logs. The same symbol different names. It was not until the Nazis reversed the image that it became a symbol for hatred. Oddly enough the pentagram was also reversed to represent evil.. Two sides of the same coin, perhaps? Think about it.
 
While I can appreciate the intent behind the prohibition of a symbol like the swastika I feel it is gross simplification of the issue. There is a big difference between neonazis displaying Nazi symbols and someone building a model of a historical object trying to accurately portray a WWII object.

Are the history books censored as well? It's pretty hard to avoid the Nazi symbols in pictures of WWII? How can revising history and attempting to keep people ignorant possibly be a good thing?
 
Nor I, whether it's on a scale model or on an accessory to be used along with miniature figurines.
Although in Asia, where it's an ancient symbol, it's a mirror image of the one that automatically springs to mind.

IMG_0449a.jpg


Cheers
H

Samurai family crests

Hachisuka - http://www.samurai-archives.com/crest2.html

Suda - http://www.samurai-archives.com/crest6.html
 
This is one of my favorites. The band Kiss and the SS runes. Simmons and Stanley are both Jewish and Simmon's mother is a holocaust surviver and this is what they came up with for their band logo. Is it really possible that they were that ignorant of history?
 

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That's a hard one to figure out Frank. Maybe it's just a lucky (or rather unlucky) coincidence.
 
This is one of my favorites. The band Kiss and the SS runes. Simmons and Stanley are both Jewish and Simmon's mother is a holocaust surviver and this is what they came up with for their band logo. Is it really possible that they were that ignorant of history?

If nothing else it is ironic, don't you think?
 
While I can appreciate the intent behind the prohibition of a symbol like the swastika I feel it is gross simplification of the issue. There is a big difference between neonazis displaying Nazi symbols and someone building a model of a historical object trying to accurately portray a WWII object.

Are the history books censored as well? It's pretty hard to avoid the Nazi symbols in pictures of WWII? How can revising history and attempting to keep people ignorant possibly be a good thing?

As usual Frank - a large dash of common sense goes a long way.
There is a world of difference between neo-nazis strutting around displaying symbols that most of us find distasteful and the desire of collectors/model makers to be accurate in portraying a WWII aircraft or FAV.

Cheers
H
 
This is one of my favorites. The band Kiss and the SS runes. Simmons and Stanley are both Jewish and Simmon's mother is a holocaust surviver and this is what they came up with for their band logo. Is it really possible that they were that ignorant of history?

They were certainly ignorant of good taste and musical ability.
The New York Dolls also dressed up with make up but were much better
 
This is one of my favorites. The band Kiss and the SS runes. Simmons and Stanley are both Jewish and Simmon's mother is a holocaust surviver and this is what they came up with for their band logo. Is it really possible that they were that ignorant of history?
They are just idiots, pure and simple. -- lancer
 
They are just idiots, pure and simple. -- lancer

Well, idiots laughing all the way to the bank, at least, Gene Simmons is. He was very shrewd about marketing Kiss, almost from the beginning.

I remember a snippet from the Stern show, when Howard had Gene Simmons on as a guest, and one of the crew did a dead-on impression of Simmons, that went something like this:

(Simmons impersonator): Howard, I just wanted to point out that today is a very important date in Kisstory
(Stern):Wha-what date is it?
(Simmons impersonator): It's March 15th
(Stern): Why is that important?
(Simmons impersonator): It was on this date in 1947 that I put "KISS" on a lunchbox and sold it, making it the first piece of KISS memorabilia

He's ugly as sin, but he's gotten a ton of tookie, and he's a millionaire. And not a bad guitar player, for all of his ignorance of history.
 
I think it's important when discussing the topic of whether or not a manufacturer includes swastikas in a kit, to recognize a couple of distinctions.

There are legal bans on displaying and distributing Nazi symbols, such as the clockwise rotating swastika and other emblems, in Germany and other countries, and there is the question of whether or not each of us as a collector chooses to collect and display items depicting the history of the Third Reich. One does not necessarily flow from the other, and we must not misunderstand why the first is in place, especially in the context of politics today in the West.

Nazi emblems are banned from display, with exceptions made for historical-educational use, in Germany, in laws that pre-date the current constitution of the Federal Republic, and that originate in the ordinances passed in the US and British zones of occupation immediate after the defeat of the Third Reich. In the US zone, the occupation authorities kept a tight rein on the press, prohibiting not only overt National Socialist material, but also nationalist material, and anything else thought to be provocative.

When the leading German politicians (Adenauer, Heuss, et al) convened to develop a constitution and legal code for a postwar German state, they adopted the ban into the civil and criminal codes. It survives to this day.

Items made to be sold in Germany cannot display the swastika, without violating that law.

Now, to the other point, we may each of us decide, at least here in the United States, whether to display a Reichskriegsflagge, or a Party badge, or a picture of Hitler with hearts drawn all over it, because that is protected speech. We have a different history, as inheritors of the English Enlightenment, so we have different laws. Actually, you'll almost get in more trouble now for displaying the Confederate battle flag, because of distortions of historical facts, than you would if you were display a swastika.

And just to illustrate that this isn't a new issue in our time, remember that the division sign of the US Army's 45th Division was a swastika, if I'm not mistaken, red, with the cross set up/down like a plus sign, and rotating clockwise, until we entered the war, when it was replaced with another symbol common among Southwest Indian tribes, the thunderbird.

Personally, I choose not to collect items depicting the Third Reich, at least, not for my toy soldiers. I do build German aircraft and armor, though.

And finally, there's a quote I always think of, from Bill Mauldin, in his book, "Up Front", discussing the issue as it was presented in the press during the war. He said something to the effect that GIs saw very few Nazi troops, except when they came up against Waffen-SS units, and that a dogface sweating out an 88 barrage didn't say, "Those dirty Nazis!", but rather, "Those godd*m Krauts!"

Just some observations on the topic of swastika/no swastika...

Prost!
Brad
 
I think it's important when discussing the topic of whether or not a manufacturer includes swastikas in a kit, to recognize a couple of distinctions.

There are legal bans on displaying and distributing Nazi symbols, such as the clockwise rotating swastika and other emblems, in Germany and other countries, and there is the question of whether or not each of us as a collector chooses to collect and display items depicting the history of the Third Reich. One does not necessarily flow from the other, and we must not misunderstand why the first is in place, especially in the context of politics today in the West.

Nazi emblems are banned from display, with exceptions made for historical-educational use, in Germany, in laws that pre-date the current constitution of the Federal Republic, and that originate in the ordinances passed in the US and British zones of occupation immediate after the defeat of the Third Reich. In the US zone, the occupation authorities kept a tight rein on the press, prohibiting not only overt National Socialist material, but also nationalist material, and anything else thought to be provocative.

When the leading German politicians (Adenauer, Heuss, et al) convened to develop a constitution and legal code for a postwar German state, they adopted the ban into the civil and criminal codes. It survives to this day.

Items made to be sold in Germany cannot display the swastika, without violating that law.

Now, to the other point, we may each of us decide, at least here in the United States, whether to display a Reichskriegsflagge, or a Party badge, or a picture of Hitler with hearts drawn all over it, because that is protected speech. We have a different history, as inheritors of the English Enlightenment, so we have different laws. Actually, you'll almost get in more trouble now for displaying the Confederate battle flag, because of distortions of historical facts, than you would if you were display a swastika.

And just to illustrate that this isn't a new issue in our time, remember that the division sign of the US Army's 45th Division was a swastika, if I'm not mistaken, red, with the cross set up/down like a plus sign, and rotating clockwise, until we entered the war, when it was replaced with another symbol common among Southwest Indian tribes, the thunderbird.

Personally, I choose not to collect items depicting the Third Reich, at least, not for my toy soldiers. I do build German aircraft and armor, though.

And finally, there's a quote I always think of, from Bill Mauldin, in his book, "Up Front", discussing the issue as it was presented in the press during the war. He said something to the effect that GIs saw very few Nazi troops, except when they came up against Waffen-SS units, and that a dogface sweating out an 88 barrage didn't say, "Those dirty Nazis!", but rather, "Those godd*m Krauts!"

Just some observations on the topic of swastika/no swastika...

Prost!
Brad

Brad,
May I congratulate you on yet another insightful and very informative post.

Thanks
H
 
While I can appreciate the intent behind the prohibition of a symbol like the swastika I feel it is gross simplification of the issue. There is a big difference between neonazis displaying Nazi symbols and someone building a model of a historical object trying to accurately portray a WWII object.

Are the history books censored as well? It's pretty hard to avoid the Nazi symbols in pictures of WWII? How can revising history and attempting to keep people ignorant possibly be a good thing?

No, Frank, historical books are not censored. What is forbidden is the public display of any racist symbol. No one wants to keep people ignorant, just to avoid the repetition of old mistakes.

Do you want another WW2? Do you want another Holocaust? Well, the Brazilian lawmakers don't and they actively try to prevent that from happening. I salute their efforts.

Cheers...

Uthred
 
I think it's important when discussing the topic of whether or not a manufacturer includes swastikas in a kit, to recognize a couple of distinctions.

There are legal bans on displaying and distributing Nazi symbols, such as the clockwise rotating swastika and other emblems, in Germany and other countries, and there is the question of whether or not each of us as a collector chooses to collect and display items depicting the history of the Third Reich. One does not necessarily flow from the other, and we must not misunderstand why the first is in place, especially in the context of politics today in the West.

Nazi emblems are banned from display, with exceptions made for historical-educational use, in Germany, in laws that pre-date the current constitution of the Federal Republic, and that originate in the ordinances passed in the US and British zones of occupation immediate after the defeat of the Third Reich. In the US zone, the occupation authorities kept a tight rein on the press, prohibiting not only overt National Socialist material, but also nationalist material, and anything else thought to be provocative.

When the leading German politicians (Adenauer, Heuss, et al) convened to develop a constitution and legal code for a postwar German state, they adopted the ban into the civil and criminal codes. It survives to this day.

Items made to be sold in Germany cannot display the swastika, without violating that law.

Now, to the other point, we may each of us decide, at least here in the United States, whether to display a Reichskriegsflagge, or a Party badge, or a picture of Hitler with hearts drawn all over it, because that is protected speech. We have a different history, as inheritors of the English Enlightenment, so we have different laws. Actually, you'll almost get in more trouble now for displaying the Confederate battle flag, because of distortions of historical facts, than you would if you were display a swastika.

And just to illustrate that this isn't a new issue in our time, remember that the division sign of the US Army's 45th Division was a swastika, if I'm not mistaken, red, with the cross set up/down like a plus sign, and rotating clockwise, until we entered the war, when it was replaced with another symbol common among Southwest Indian tribes, the thunderbird.

Personally, I choose not to collect items depicting the Third Reich, at least, not for my toy soldiers. I do build German aircraft and armor, though.

And finally, there's a quote I always think of, from Bill Mauldin, in his book, "Up Front", discussing the issue as it was presented in the press during the war. He said something to the effect that GIs saw very few Nazi troops, except when they came up against Waffen-SS units, and that a dogface sweating out an 88 barrage didn't say, "Those dirty Nazis!", but rather, "Those godd*m Krauts!"

Just some observations on the topic of swastika/no swastika...

Prost!
Brad

Brad, it may be my fault, but I simply can't understand Americans displaying nazi symbols as a political statement. In my humble opinion, at least it's disrespectful to the memories of the American men and women who died in WW2.

Those GI's died so that Americans could keep their rights, and now some people use their rights to display nazi symbols in political rallies, the symbols of the enemy? I can't understand it. Maybe I don't want to.
:confused:

Cheers...

Uthred
 
If collectors are going to display a WWII diorama including German troops, wether it be on the march, on parade or in battle, it would be hard to totally ignore the swastika. This symbol was all over the place and and as flags of certain troops are displayed for many other conflicts through history, starting at Ancient Times, why would you want to ban this one in your display.
I don't get the problem, either from manufacturers or collectors or governments.
It is perfectly fine to display German WWII troops of any kind but as soon as the swastika comes in, it is all wrong and can't be done?
Konrad
 
If collectors are going to display a WWII diorama including German troops, wether it be on the march, on parade or in battle, it would be hard to totally ignore the swastika. This symbol was all over the place and and as flags of certain troops are displayed for many other conflicts through history, starting at Ancient Times, why would you want to ban this one in your display.
I don't get the problem, either from manufacturers or collectors or governments.
It is perfectly fine to display German WWII troops of any kind but as soon as the swastika comes in, it is all wrong and can't be done?
Konrad

I think I made it very clear what's not fine is not to display anything on your collection, but to display the swastika as political statement, in a political rally.

Those are two different things, aren't they?

Cheers...

Uthred
 
There's no need to be embarrased. On your next vacations take a plane to Brazil, a HUGE country with lots of beaches, tropical rain forests in the north and european-style wineyards in the south!
:D

I talked to this nice couple from New Zealand on the airplane the other day and I was giving them advice of what to do and what not to do in Brazil. Brazil is very safe, unlike some foreigners think, but it's not safe in every neigborhood (just like in the USA, right?).

I will create a thread about visiting Brazil on the Miscelanous area for those interested on it.
;)

Cheers...

Uthred


.......................................................................................................

If only there was enough time! Wife and daughter love Paris, they both spent

a summer there a few years ago. Wife and I had an apartment there for a

little while one summer. Next trip we take will be back there, its like being in

another world, very relaxing once you learn the customs.
 
I think I made it very clear what's not fine is not to display anything on your collection, but to display the swastika as political statement, in a political rally.

Those are two different things, aren't they?

Cheers...

Uthred

I am talking Toy Soldiers, Miniatures, Dioramas, Vignettes, Models and all that .... , stuff that gets displayed in a curio, on a shelf, in a museum, to show troops of a certain time period.
Konrad
 
I am talking Toy Soldiers, Miniatures, Dioramas, Vignettes, Models and all that .... , stuff that gets displayed in a curio, on a shelf, in a museum, to show troops of a certain time period.
Konrad

I know, Konrad. We all agree it's ok to have the swastika in a diorama.
:D

Isn't it great when we all agree?

Cheers...

Uthred
 
.......................................................................................................

If only there was enough time! Wife and daughter love Paris, they both spent

a summer there a few years ago. Wife and I had an apartment there for a

little while one summer. Next trip we take will be back there, its like being in

another world, very relaxing once you learn the customs.

Maybe if you've shown her some of the pictures I am posting, John, she'd change her mind! You never know...

Cheers...

Uthred
 

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