Haig; Murderer or Judged too harshly? (1 Viewer)

[Rob]

Guys,I've been loving this WW1 discussion over the last few days and along with the Battle of Britain is my favourite subject.So here is a poll I hope will not upset my mate Bob

Hero or villain?

I'm pretty sure how this one will go but it will be interesting to see.

 

[jazzeum]

Rob,

No poll attached.

I think you're asking for a black and white answer to a question which, as you've pointed out, has a lot of grey. It's almost impossible to answer considering the controversy that smolders about him. For example, Basil Liddell-Hart defended him and then later changed his mind. So, who's to say?

 

[Rob]

Rob,

No poll attached.

I think you're asking for a black and white answer to a question which, as you've pointed out, has a lot of grey. It's almost impossible to answer considering the controversy that smolders about him. For example, Basil Liddell-Hart defended him and then later changed his mind. So, who's to say?

Its up now Brad. Of course you are right about a black and white answer, but I'm just interested to see who thinks what.

Rob

(Hopefully people don't mind this poll,its not a 'I want,I want I want ' poll)

 

[jazzeum]

I wonder which choice Louis will go for

 

[Rob]

I wonder which choice Louis will go for

If I were Haig I'd be writing my last letter home!

Come on Brad, pick one, lets see who is where!

 

[Rob]

I see Terry and I are both not convinced by evidence from either defence or prosecution, maybe I should close the poll now and call that forum opinion!!

Rob

 

[Louis Badolato]

I voted he should have been sacked after the Somme, thereby saving not only all those men's lives, but his own if I was the prosecutor . . .

See, I am not completely unreasonable.

 

[Rob]

I voted he should have been sacked after the Somme, thereby saving not only all those men's lives, but his own if I was the prosecutor . . .

See, I am not completely unreasonable.

I think you showed great restraint mate!

Rob

 

[jazzeum]

You probably should Rob. After all that was said in the prior thread, as Robert Burns said in his poem To A Mouse:

But Mouse, you are not alone,
In proving foresight may be vain:
The best laid schemes of mice and men
Go often askew,
And leaves us nothing but grief and pain,
For promised joy!

 

[Mitch]

Guys...

I realise that this is tongue in cheek but, prosecutors being allowed to decide the fate of the alleged defendants, tut tut. What next a return to the diplock courts?

For me, I think Churchill summed him up probably best when he likened him to a surgeon who had to act dispassionately for the long term good of the patient. It is, nowhere near as cut and dry as some have put on here but, as Rob stated its very interesting where the views come from and, with such passion.

Look forward to more
Mitch

 

[Rob]

You probably should Rob. After all that was said in the prior thread, as Robert Burns said in his poem To A Mouse:

But Mouse, you are not alone,
In proving foresight may be vain:
The best laid schemes of mice and men
Go often askew,
And leaves us nothing but grief and pain,
For promised joy!

Brad, sorry, are you saying I should have shown restraint?

Mitch,

Its been a very enjoyable debate indeed, when I started the thread about the burial of the Brit and Aussie heroes I had no idea it would become so interesting with a great exchange of views.Its another great side of this forum, its not all about 'I want ' type threads.

Rob

 

[Northgate Woods]

Rob mate,
I note with interest that you credit Haig with his later brilliant victories. If one studies the bios of Monash, Currie and Pershing it becomes clear that he being the GOC gets the credit. But IMHO he was carried along on the brillance of these three great Corp Commanders who with outstanding planning and great concern for the previous lose of life gave him the victories that as GOC he took credit for.
Monash and Currie were knighted in the field because the PM and the King, once again IMHO knew the real truth.
As Sir John Monash put it once in an address to his Divisional Commanders, "Australia is a sporting nation and likes to see the score on the board". He was referring to the fact that Haig and Gough were taking all the credit for the great achievements of others.
Cheers Howard

 

[Rob]

Rob mate,
I note with interest that you credit Haig with his later brilliant victories. If one studies the bios of Monash, Currie and Pershing it becomes clear that he being the GOC gets the credit. But IMHO he was carried along on the brillance of these three great Corp Commanders who with outstanding planning and great concern for the previous lose of life gave him the victories that as GOC he took credit for.
Monash and Currie were knighted in the field because the PM and the King, once again IMHO knew the real truth.
As Sir John Monash put it once in an address to his Divisional Commanders, "Australia is a sporting nation and likes to see the score on the board". He was referring to the fact that Haig and Gough were taking all the credit for the great achievements of others.
Cheers Howard

Sorry mate with great respect I can't agree with that,I don't think they did it ALL on their own and Haig was in there from the ' backs to the wall' moment to the end of the War, he showed good leadership and great inspiration to his men. He oversaw many victories including second Somme that was his idea against Foch's wishes. Yes of course the Generals you mention did a superb job, but Haig thoroughly deserves his share of the credit too.In fact Pershing called him 'The man that won the War'.

He has to shoulder his part of the blame for both Somme and Passchendaele, but fair play to the guy he led the British Army to eventual victory in 1918 and deserves credit for that.

Cheers mate

Rob

 

[Mitch]

Great corps commanders? was it not Pershings refusal to accept the armistice and ordered troops to fight on something which, resulted in the deaths of about 3,400 us troops. An outstanding contribution to the misery of war and, probably as reckless wanton disregard for the lives of human beings when, the war was over. was that or, should that have been a murder charge?
Mitch

 

[Rob]

Monash and Currie were superb commanders,no doubting that. But Pershing's order to take that town on Armistice day was an outrage, although it doesn't compare in casualty figures with first day of the Somme,in some ways its worse.Because Pershing knew the War was over in just a few hours time, he threw all those young mens lives away for absolutely no reason. At least Haig THOUGHT he was doing the right thing at a time when there was no end in sight.I understand there was a hearing in the states after the War but Pershing got away with it??.

Rob

 

[Northgate Woods]

Rob and Mitch,
Good pick up. I had forgotten about that one of Pershings. Just also remember that he pull the plug on Monash at the eleven hour, withdrawing troops prior to the Battle of Hamel. I will have to do some more reading on old Black Jack. I have mainly for obvious reasons read and studied my hero, Sir John Monash.
Cheers Howard

 

[jazzeum]

In doing some research on this topic, I came across the book "Douglas Haig and the First World War," by J.P. Harris, published by Cambridge University Press in 2008, which has gotten some outstanding reviews as a very fair and balanced review of the man. For those who may be interested.

 

[Rob]

You probably should Rob. After all that was said in the prior thread, as Robert Burns said in his poem To A Mouse:

But Mouse, you are not alone,
In proving foresight may be vain:
The best laid schemes of mice and men
Go often askew,
And leaves us nothing but grief and pain,
For promised joy!

Brad,didn't quite understand the point about restraint in this?

QUOTE=Mitch;308649]Guys...

I realise that this is tongue in cheek but, prosecutors being allowed to decide the fate of the alleged defendants, tut tut. What next a return to the diplock courts?

For me, I think Churchill summed him up probably best when he likened him to a surgeon who had to act dispassionately for the long term good of the patient. It is, nowhere near as cut and dry as some have put on here but, as Rob stated its very interesting where the views come from and, with such passion.

Look forward to more
Mitch[/QUOTE]


Of all Wars,perhaps WW1 provokes more Passion than any other.

Rob

 

[jazzeum]

Rob,

I didn't see anything in my post about restraint, express or implied. You've got me a little puzzled there.

Also, I think the quotes need to be fixed up, if possible. Can't really follow them.

 

[Rob]

Rob,

I didn't see anything in my post about restraint, express or implied. You've got me a little puzzled there.

Also, I think the quotes need to be fixed up, if possible. Can't really follow them.

Yes the posts got mixed up for some reason on that one.

I posted that Louis had shown great restraint and in post no9 you replied 'you probably should Rob'. I just didn't understand that one.

Cheers

Rob