Hanomag Symbol ID please (5 Viewers)

[Blowtorch]

The Sturm.-Abt. 192 used different coloured totenkopf (white, green, yellow and red) to identify each of the three Kompanie and HQ..

Red was Battery 1 / 192

 

[PanzerAce1944]

I would think symbol ID questions can be answered via plugging in the desired info into your favorite internet search engine and go from there !

 

[Phantom Warrior]

I would think symbol ID questions can be answered via plugging in the desired info into your favorite internet search engine and go from there !

Then it should be quick and easy for the manufacturers to get it right ^&confuse But it isn't that easy. If it was, there wouldn't be any discussions of symbols or need for people to ask what a particular symbol means, even after reference books and internet searches. There is a lot of wrong information, contradictory information and incomplete information out there. FoB039 Stug III for example took a lot of research and it still isn't 100% certain.

Terry

 

[PanzerAce1944]

Then it should be quick and easy for the manufacturers to get it right ^&confuse But it isn't that easy. If it was, there wouldn't be any discussions of symbols or need for people to ask what a particular symbol means, even after reference books and internet searches. There is a lot of wrong information, contradictory information and incomplete information out there. FoB039 Stug III for example took a lot of research and it still isn't 100% certain.

Terry

So the way it stands now, The FOB Stug "Is Correct" until someone can prove it is wrong...............Which has not been done yet ! We still know the name of the soccer team that Hans played for.....FCN
fussball club Nurnberg ^&grin

 

[Blowtorch]

I would think symbol ID questions can be answered via plugging in the desired info into your favorite internet search engine and go from there !

It's an acquired process of learning who to trust. There's about four people in the world doing regular archive work, some others doing sporadic research, about a hundred authors writing books off of incomplete research discoveries they don't understand, another hundred writing websites in the same condition, several hundred offering opinions on incomplete understandings, and of all those people maybe three are fluent in German & English who are the only ones who even have a chance of getting to th bottom of anything

 

[Phantom Warrior]

So the way it stands now, The FOB Stug "Is Correct" until someone can prove it is wrong...............Which has not been done yet ! We still know the name of the soccer team that Hans played for.....FCN
fussball club Nurnberg ^&grin

No - it is not correct. But that partly depends on how one views the model. I think it is a very good model and am OK with the actual history. K&C supporters will be happy with the model but Collectors who do not like K&C could call it misleading and historically wrong.

Here is the advert.

http://cis.niagara.edu/kandc/detail.php?code=FOB038

It's a Stug III Ausf B with markings that indicate it was of the Sturm.-Abt. 192, but Ausf B Stugs didn't exist in May 1940 during the Battle of France and neither did Stug Battalions. The Ausf B iis correct for later in 1940 and correct for Stug.-Abt. 192 in Russia 1941 - 1943. The only Stugs in France in May 1940 were 24 Ausf A assigned to 4 Sturmartllerie-Batteries, each with 6 Stugs organized in 3 platoons of 2 Stugs each.

And there are two unanswered questions about the markings of the 192nd.

And even more shocking, one of the Stugs was commanded by Michael Wittmann and the manufacturers haven't made several versions of it {eek3}^&grin

Terry

 

[barneywomble]

No - it is not correct. But that partly depends on how one views the model. I think it is a very good model and am OK with the actual history. K&C supporters will be happy with the model but Collectors who do not like K&C could call it misleading and historically wrong.

Here is the advert.

http://cis.niagara.edu/kandc/detail.php?code=FOB038

It's a Stug III Ausf B with markings that indicate it was of the Sturm.-Abt. 192, but Ausf B Stugs didn't exist in May 1940 during the Battle of France and neither did Stug Battalions. The Ausf B iis correct for later in 1940 and correct for Stug.-Abt. 192 in Russia 1941 - 1943. The only Stugs in France in May 1940 were 24 Ausf A assigned to 4 Sturmartllerie-Batteries, each with 6 Stugs organized in 3 platoons of 2 Stugs each.

And there are two unanswered questions about the markings of the 192nd.

And even more shocking, one of the Stugs was commanded by Michael Wittmann and the manufacturers haven't made several versions of it {eek3}^&grin

Terry

So the model "itself" is basically correct but the advertising associated with it is wrong... ? If one was to say "change the advertising blurb" to a more historically correct blurb then that would solve the issue... ? Just asking {sm2}

cheers
Marc

 

[Phantom Warrior]

So the model "itself" is basically correct but the advertising associated with it is wrong... ? If one was to say "change the advertising blurb" to a more historically correct blurb then that would solve the issue... ? Just asking {sm2}

cheers
Marc

Yes - you've got it. It has the correct features of an Ausf B including the wider tracks, the new front sprocket with the triangular instead of the round cutouts, and no storage bins on the rear track guards. And it is a single colour grey which is correct for most of the Ausf B. The only question is when the 192nd went to a numerical tank identification system as opposed to an Alphabetical one and whether they used the 192 identifier on the tank.

Terry

 

[barneywomble]

Yet another "Commander Vehicle"... its marked faintly with the 1/192 and the "S" and the picture states a Ausf B Russian Winter 1941/42... maybe this is our tank... ?

cheers
Marc

 

[Blowtorch]

Yet another "Commander Vehicle"... its marked faintly with the 1/192 and the "S" and the picture states a Ausf B Russian Winter 1941/42... maybe this is our tank... ?

cheers
Marc

View attachment 146369View attachment 146370

Some more commentary on research...

little did I know that I had a 2011 book by Mr. StuG himself, Karlheinz Muench collecting dust on my bookshelf on this very unit, the 192. He claims the Totenkopf were:

Staffbattery-Green
First-White
Second-Red
Third-Yellow

which contradicts the artwork of Jean Restayn in Franz Kurowski's much older "Sturmgeschuetz vor!" who used Red for the First, and Yellow for the Second. I'm going with Karlheinz on this one.

Futhermore, Karlheinz puts the TO&E in there, describing each battery as having 3 Zug (1.Zug, 2.Zug, 3.Zug). Each Battery had the same numbering system for the StuG's.

1.Zug : 13 & 14
2.Zug : 23 & 24
3.Zug : 33 & 34

As for the "S", according to veteran memories, it stood for a Zugfuehrer called "Leutnant Karl-Heinz Schulz-Streeck"

Book is in German, Im sure Im missing lots of other goodies

Oh, the "S" is on the White Totenkopf (First Battery) so many mistakes out there in the modeling world. Nothing new.

 

[Phantom Warrior]

Which brings us as it often does to the point where information is contradictory and puts us beyond what can be explained. Just from photos in this thread we can see Stugs of the 192 showing the totenkopf but having the numbers "1" and "25" which don't fit Karl-Heinz numbering system. And there is the curse of the white "S". Again, photos in this thread show "S" Stugs with the numbers "13" and "25". The photo I posted with the red arrow pointed at the 45 degree angled "S" on Stug No. 25 is the Batteriestab (Headquarters Stug) used by the Batterie Commander.

So what we can say is that the model is an Ausf. B Stug of a Batterie Commander of Sturm.-Abt. 192 serving with Army Group Centre on the Eastern Front between March 1941 and March 1942. Any more than that is guessing and subject to the vagaries of timing and what actually went on in the field. History is messy.

I'm satisfied the K&C model is historically accurate. ^&cool

Terry

 

[DM101]

The Sturm.-Abt. 192 used different coloured totenkopf (white, green, yellow and red) to identify each of the three Kompanie and HQ.. They also used serif style numbers to identify each specific Stug. In 1941, a Sturm.-Abt. had 3 Kompanie (or Batterie) of 6 Stugs each, later increased to 7 and late in the war increased to 10 or 14 Stugs. With HQ Stugs, a late war Sturm.-Abt. could have 31 or 45 Stugs.

Sturm.-Abt. 192 used serif style numbers to identify individual Stugs.

View attachment 146344

The "S" at a 45 degree angle is for some special us. Maybe it designates the Kompanie commander.

View attachment 146345

Now I undesrtand why there's a "S" on this set {sm4}

 

[King Tiger II]

Hi Blowtorch


Did you refered to this book ?

Its all german language, i dont have it.

StuG. Abt. 192 - Einsatz- und Bilddokumentation der Sturmgeschütz-Abteilung 192 [Gebundene Ausgabe]

Thanks

Serge

 

[Blowtorch]

Hi Blowtorch


Did you refered to this book ?

Its all german language, i dont have it.

StuG. Abt. 192 - Einsatz- und Bilddokumentation der Sturmgeschütz-Abteilung 192 [Gebundene Ausgabe]

Thanks

Serge

Serge, here is the book:





Terry, a couple things, Karlheinz didn't provide the numbering for the staff vehicles. Only the three line platoons. Second, that letter on #25 doesn't look like "S" but a cyrillic letter which just makes another mystery. Third, the "S" is seen only on vehicles with the white skull, not red.

Not that this matters. I'm not unreasonable...I'm of the philosophy when it comes to nebulous issues such as this, historical 'close enough' is fine by me.

 

[Blowtorch]

What red skull looks like in B&W

 

[Phantom Warrior]

The 192 was formed with 3 Batteries of 6 Stugs each numbered 13, 14, 23, 24, 33, 34. Plus one for the Battalon Commander for a total of 19 Stugs. That may be where the Stug #1 is for - it's a newer Ausf D. When the Stug. Abt. went to 7 Stugs per Batterie, that's probably where the #25 came from - they likely added #'s 15, 25 and 35.

Batterie Commanders were designated with a slanted "S". I can blow up the photo of #25 and it is a slanted "S". It makes no sense for it to be a Cyrillic letter.

I don't know why the K&C model has no number - just an "S". It's an Ausf "B" so maybe that is how the Battalion Commander was originally designated then used the #1 when he upgraded to an Ausf "D". But where the #1 came from is unknown.

Terry

 

[Blowtorch]

Terry, why would they advertise the battery CO on the front of the vehicle? That tells the enemy who to shoot first

 

[Blowtorch]

Hi Blowtorch


Did you refered to this book ?

Its all german language, i dont have it.

StuG. Abt. 192 - Einsatz- und Bilddokumentation der Sturmgeschütz-Abteilung 192 [Gebundene Ausgabe]

Thanks

Serge

Serge, it's a typical JJF/Trojca style large format photo book. Nearly all the photos are Barbarossa. fyi all vehicles in the unit had these two digit numbers. Opels, halftracks, those little ammo half tracks, recovery vehicles, the battalion CO was quite number crazy

Oh yeah, the "S" is seen on one of those little halftrack ammo carriers if that's important to anyone

 

[jager7080]

The 192 was formed with 3 Batteries of 6 Stugs each numbered 13, 14, 23, 24, 33, 34. Plus one for the Battalon Commander for a total of 19 Stugs. That may be where the Stug #1 is for - it's a newer Ausf D. When the Stug. Abt. went to 7 Stugs per Batterie, that's probably where the #25 came from - they likely added #'s 15, 25 and 35.

Batterie Commanders were designated with a slanted "S". I can blow up the photo of #25 and it is a slanted "S". It makes no sense for it to be a Cyrillic letter.

I don't know why the K&C model has no number - just an "S". It's an Ausf "B" so maybe that is how the Battalion Commander was originally designated then used the #1 when he upgraded to an Ausf "D". But where the #1 came from is unknown.

Terry

Terry ,

I have been looking thru Panzer Colors III which to has a good deal of Stug pic's & explains in side captions about the markings...
So far looking thru i have seen Stug's with the letter S , A , H , D
The caption's posted are as follows -

For A it states : A Stug III of the battalions first battery carries a White A to identify the unit , a common method of marking artillery units. assault gun formations were considered artillery units...This white A belonged to 1/203...

For H it states : H is in white with a black outline and probably denotes a section of a battery in the battalion...H would denote the 2nd section of the 3rd battery...The H may also indicate the Headquarters section...

For D it states : A Stug III of Herman Goring in Italy...Overall color of dark yellow with a black D denoting the section - probably the 1st section,2nd battery...

Then i see another Herman Goring Stug III Ausf F marked with a black A while the Stug is overall dark yellow...

Joe