Help Identifying W Britain Soldiers (1 Viewer)

[OllyOlly]

Hi all,

Long time listener, first time caller.

After close to a decade, I'm just rounding the bend on completing a collection of things surrounding HG Wells' 1913 publication of Little Wars. A recent chance document find a week or two, which nearly completes the nigh-impossible document hoarding phase, sparked my interest in finally collecting a few more of the last remaining things.

Specifically, legitimate (and period-appropriate) versions of the W Britain soldiers on the cover of the book.



The book was published in 1913 which would make these relatively easily to identify at auction (assuming they ever come up for sale) because it falls during a phase where their bases would be dated. Would also limit the types of sets available at the time. Of course these appear to be an artistic impression, but as-close-as-possible would probably have to do in this case.

What exactly are the sets called? I believe one of them is Black Watch / Sutherland & Argyll Highlanders. As far as the much more typical "British soldiers with black bearskins".. these could be a multitude of sets. The cavalry, I have no idea.

The 4.7 inch naval gun, a pre-1913 model, I remarkably already managed to find years back by complete chance out of Belgium.

Does anybody have any ideas to hammer these down to some specific sets to keep watch for in the future?

Thanks!

 

[theBaron]

Welcome to the forum, Olly!

...As far as the much more typical "British soldiers with black bearskins".. these could be a multitude of sets. The cavalry, I have no idea...

As far as those grenadiers are concerned, it looks like they've got a white hackle on the left side of their bearskin caps, and not just a glare of light. That would make it easier to identify the regiment. So does the number and arrangement of the buttons on their tunics. If I'm not mistaken, the Grenadier Guards have the white hackle on the left side. The Welsh Guards, though, have a white-green-white hackle on the left side, and Britain did depict this, by painting the plume the same as for the Grenadier Guards, but with a narrow red line across the middle.

As for the hussars, I'm sure someone else will be able to identify them from the photo. I would have to look at my reference books, like James Opie's or Norman Joplin's books. My area of expertise is the armies of the Seven Years War, and the Kaiser's army; otherwise, I have to look it up.

Let's see what the others say.

Prost!
Brad

 

[DMNamiot]

Hi there this project sounds like a wonderful way to spend a lot of time!

The cavalry depicted look to be set 99 13th Hussars from 1899. The marching troops could be any set of period marching Guards like set 107 The Irish Guards. If you are considering actually using them in war games I would contact Andrew at Replica Metal Soldiers he is making true to scale and finish pieces that would work for your display.

www.replicametalsoldiers.co.uk

Hope this helps

Dave

 

[theBaron]

Good call on the hussars, Dave! But don't the Irish Guards have a blue hackle on the right side of the bearskin?

Prost!
Brad

 

[OllyOlly]

Hi there this project sounds like a wonderful way to spend a lot of time!

The cavalry depicted look to be set 99 13th Hussars from 1899. The marching troops could be any set of period marching Guards like set 107 The Irish Guards. If you are considering actually using them in war games I would contact Andrew at Replica Metal Soldiers he is making true to scale and finish pieces that would work for your display.

www.replicametalsoldiers.co.uk

Hope this helps

Dave

Indeed those do appear to be the correct cavalry! Although I note one of them (on the cover) has a rectangle base rearing up. Would this place them a bit later than 1899 due to when Britain started using rectangle bases? Or is this some fanciful imagination of the artist?

And as for wargames, these won't be used. I've just gone to such work collecting all the first-hand articles, magazines, the cannons he uses, and the first print of the book itself - would seem an awful shame not to have period-appropriate toy soldier models.

Thanks for the help guys! I just ordered James Opie's book 1893-1932 (wasn't cheap, ha) and will hopefully be able to use that as a reference in the future too.

 

[OllyOlly]

The first goal of course is to try to find period appropriate examples of the soldiers on the cover, but then also going through some of my materials - and photographs in his book - it's clear H.G. Wells had a whole mix of these soldiers he used. So eventually it would be nice to have a few examples them.



You can note even here - and although it's an "artistic" impression - looks like he had Gordon Highlanders, but the old style with round bases - and bottom left you see Grenadiers with rectangle bases.

I find it charming that the artist took such time to get these oddly specific details correct.

 

[DMNamiot]

Sorry I missed the blue hackle it was breakfast time for me before work so I wasn’t looking as closely.

I think this is a great quest.

Dave

 

[OllyOlly]

Sorry I missed the blue hackle it was breakfast time for me before work so I wasn’t looking as closely.

I think this is a great quest.

Dave

Possibly the greatest I've ever involved myself in, nearly a decade in the making.

It all started when I first arrived back in Canada for a Master's degree, a well-funded one.. and it was the first time I'd not only not been completely broke as a student, but had more disposable income than I'd ever seen in my life - and nothing to spend it on.

So, as an avid wargamer / miniature gamer / toy soldier enthusiast, I went and got HG Wells' first edition of this book. The furthest thing from cheap at the time -- but looking at what the 2 or 3 examples go for these days, it was a steal.

Then that put me down an absolute rabbithole. Of course. As a young student with not much else to do except sit on a computer at home "studying", with all this nuanced research ability (and eating pizza, and drinking, and the odd leaf drug).. I found, still to this day, the only extant copy of the magazine (outside of possibly a British Museum Archive) where they have a full-page spread of all this.. before he published the book. This particular thing took me 3 days of rabbitholing and archiving and everything else to find (thanks, drugs).. and, right place right time, some random bookseller on the other side of the world had this particular issue available. It was not a significant issue by any means unless you knew exactly the two pages you were looking for.

Still to this day it's the only relevant copy of this image on the internet - the rest are low resolution from decades ago. I'm wary of releasing it, I'd like to keep it close to me.

Then of course this cannon. The one he extensively discusses using in his book - and the very specific, pre-1913 model.. That was an objectively rare and lucky find. Out of either the Netherlands or Belgium - I can't remember - but it cost me an absurd amount. I had to have it. I haven't seen more than one or two appear on the internet for the past decade and definitely not for sale.. so that was fortunate.

Just a week or two ago, chance find, I was looking for some other book - turns out there was yet another magazine article in 1912 dedicated to this whole thing. 16 pages. I scooped that up right away.

In any case. I think, through both pure luck and dedication, I have just about the only extant collection of this memorabilia on the face of the earth outside of archives. It only took a decade and half the time I wasn't even looking for it - but that's how these things go, I suppose.

My last, and final, gasp is to finally get the toy soldiers. I have a bunch of examples from the 30s and beyond that look identical - bought them around the same time - but they don't count in the grand scheme of things. I need the real ones. The collection demands it.

I absolutely love this cannon though.

You can see why he based his wargame around it - this "toy" cannon came with a sighting mechanism and an elevation screw.

Beautiful stuff. And if it takes me a year, or three.. to get some of the period-appropriate toy soldiers.. well. I've been in this quest for ten years, what's another couple?

This will positively be an extensive exhibit by the time I finish it. I'm 85% of the way there, and buying pre-1913 vintage toy soldiers may be the easiest part -- as long as I know what to look for and can be patient about it.


Best

 

[DMNamiot]

I love the absolute commitment to the quest! I think many of us fall victim to it with our collections be it toy soldiers or other things. One book I think you need is The Great Book of Britains by Opie. I know you mentioned getting one of his books but I think this one will be the best for your particular quest. It has excellent photos and descriptions of the 1913 and earlier sets. So best of luck there. Please keep us posted on your quest.

Dave