Horse ID and manufacturer (1 Viewer)

johnnybach

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Hi all - a bit of a conundrum I would like a bit of help with please, this time.

A horse came in recently in among a job-lot. Quite a simple repair - which I hope you can see from the pics attached - new bottom of rear left leg required. (Made in England - under horse). Slightly larger than 54mm - approx 60mm).

However, I'm not QUITE sure of the manufacturer - and who might be the missing rider?

This is what I think. I think that the horse is "Burmese" which was HM Queen Elizabeth II ' s horse in the 1950's. The reason for this is the cypher shown on the horse blanket - and the unusual tack around the neck of the hores - which appear to show grab-chains. There's also some tack on the head of the horse, which I have also seen on pictures of the Queen riding a horse like this in pictures of Tropping the Colour c.1950's.

A search of my books, indicates that this could be a hollowcast model (it is BTW), made by "Noble", which was a London based TS manufacturer who made a very few figures during the 1050's. The Queen would have sat side-saddle on this mount - which appears to be confirmed by the extra straps on the right side of the horse

Can anyone confirm my thoughts about manufacturer - and possible rider? Also - any other info on this manufacturer.

Thanks - jbPIC_4834.JPGPIC_4835.JPGPIC_4836.JPG
 
It looks very much like Timpo version which had HM riding side saddle.


Hi Scott - thanks for the suggestion. I was tempted to think that Timpo might have made him too - but then I found a pic of that version in my "Great Book of Hollowcast Figures" - by Norman Joplin - which shows that his right front leg is bent and off the ground, whilst his rear two legs are apart - so that the horse is walking. (Illustration 518, page 260).

In the same book there's a TINY illustration of a version by Noble (which I know absolutely zilch about!). I think my nag looks more like that one. (Illustration 350, page178), though there appear to be detail differences - but the horse is standing - and similar to mine.

I'm pretty certain the mounted figure is the Queen - as I've found loads of pictures of her at Trooping the Colour (when she was younger and rode horses there), and the details of tack are very much the same. The horse should paint up very nicely.

I just thought someone might know for definite - as I'm about 95% sure he's by the Noble manufacturer.

I'm missing the figure of HM QE 2 - of course - so if anyone has a spare to trade.......................I'm willing???? :salute:: jb
 
I have to say Johnny that you bring us the best mysteries. I am not familiar with the horse you posted or the company but I will certainly be interested in seeing what you discover.

Dave
 
Hollowcasting definitely places it with the classic toy soldier makers. I was struck by the quality of the sculpt. I know that some hollowcast toy soldiers show very good detail under the thick enamels used, but you don't often get to see it. The saddle blanket especially shows some great detail. If I didn't know it was a hollowcast piece, I'd think that it was from one of the newer makers, post-1990.

Noble doesn't ring a bell, offhand, but I'd have to look in some of my reference books, like Andrew Rose's, and Norman Joplin's books, to see if I could find any examples.

Prost!
Brad
 
Hollowcasting definitely places it with the classic toy soldier makers. I was struck by the quality of the sculpt. I know that some hollowcast toy soldiers show very good detail under the thick enamels used, but you don't often get to see it. The saddle blanket especially shows some great detail. If I didn't know it was a hollowcast piece, I'd think that it was from one of the newer makers, post-1990.

Noble doesn't ring a bell, offhand, but I'd have to look in some of my reference books, like Andrew Rose's, and Norman Joplin's books, to see if I could find any examples.

Prost!
Brad

It was one of my original thoughts too Brad - that he was a more recent casting. However, I quickly realised he was a Hollowcast due to the weight - and the breather hole at the nose. He IS a good quality sculpt and casting - though at first sight he looked a bit scruffy. The "Made in England" also helped me realise just how old he was.

Here's a pic attached - showing how he looked - along with a few others from this job-lot, when found. Note the missing lower rear leg - paint worn away - and the saddle blanket - with detail mostly masked by too much paint and a good helping of grunge!

I'll base him up - and then give him a bit of TLC - whilst waiting to see if HM the Queen ever turns up some day!:D

Sounds like you know as much about "Noble" - as I do, Brad.{sm4}

PIC_4833.JPG

P.S. How do you like my Johillco Cowgirl? I've been waiting for one of these to show up for quite some time! jb
 
Here is the Timpo version

https://www.ebay.ie/itm/TIMPO-TOYS-...E-NEAR-MINT-/222894103651?hash=item33e5861c63


Wonder if Timpo sold the moulds to Noble who then added their name ?

That's him alright Scott - well done!!

Looks like Timpo did a couple of versions - as the pic in my book doesn't show that horse.

That is DEFINITELY the one I have though - so it is a Timpo.

The Noble one that is SO similar, has the mane of the horse combed over to the other side - so yes, as suggested by Joplin, maybe Timpo shared, or sold on, the mould with Noble.

Glad that's sorted out - many thanks Scott - that nag was nagging at me!:D

BTW - He now looks like this ( along with a Cherilea Scots Grey Officer and the Johillco cowgirl - all from the same lot and all standing up again). Note how much bigger he is than the two other 54mm figures).

Now......................anyone have the missing Queen in their stash please? :salute::jb

PIC_4838.JPGPIC_4839.JPG
 
It's too bad he doesn't have an original box, or whatever other packaging there might have been. It would be great to see a label, if there was one.

Prost!
Brad
 
Also, seeing what is likely the original paint job, and comparing it to the bare casting, we really see the difference. That really is such a nice casting, with some crisp detail, and the factory paint job obscures it. I can't wait to see your finished version, John!

Prost!
Brad
 
It's too bad he doesn't have an original box, or whatever other packaging there might have been. It would be great to see a label, if there was one.

Prost!
Brad

Well Brad, when you buy a "job-lot", you just have to roll with what you get - and quite often, as with this example, that means you just don't know what it is - until you get it into your hands - and even then, you can make an error - as I did at first.

But............with a little help from my friends ( many thanks Scott for persevering) - you CAN get there in the end. "Winston" will get a fresh coat of paint - and will be waiting the arrival, just perhaps, one day, of his missing rider. I'll be looking out for Her Majesty, by Timpo from now on - as I think he will deserve to be re-united............some day.

I also agree with you about some form of marking. Why oh why couldn't the manufacturer just add to MADE IN ENGLAND - the words "by Timpo"???? I can never understand why they don't do that simplest of things. jb
 
Some followup info...

I agree that this horse is the Timpo horse, based on photos from eBay auctions. Here are a couple of photos from an eBay auction for Her Majesty, Winston, and an original box:





The seller has identified this as the Timpo piece. Note that the horse has the additional rein from the snaffle or the bit leading back under the saddle, which John's horse also has.

Here are photos from the auction listed in the earlier post. That auction identifies the figure as Noble:





Note that the horse is missing that additional rein. It doesn't appear to have been broken off, but rather, it was never part of the casting.

Now, here's another interesting item-another figure of the Queen, trooping the colors, identified as a Benbros piece:





Note that this horse, too, is missing that additional rein. (Britain chose to exclude that detail, too, with their figure of the Queen trooping the color.)

We can also see that Timpo and Benbros apparently used the same image of the Queen, from A. Vivian Mantell & Co., on their boxes. I expect it was a common and popular postcard image from the early years of her reign. I wouldn't be surprised to find that if Noble boxed their figure-and why wouldn't they?-they would have used the same image, too.

As far as Noble goes as a manufacturer, I did find this brief article in Garratt's "World Encyclopedia of Model Soldiers":


NOBLE, London (c. 1960) A small firm making 54mm hollow-casts with a small output. A European with an Arab guide, akin to Crescent, marked NOBLE diagonally on top of base, is known. [Coutts/Juplin]"

That helps us confirm our educated guess about the time period, and also a relative rarity compared to other known makers of hollowcast toy soldiers. Garratt's article is a secondary source of a sort, since he apparently got it from Coutts and Juplin (was that a typo, and he meant Norman?). It's interesting that the article discusses a "European with an Arab guide", rather than to mention the figure of the Queen. I'd have thought that piece to be significant enough to have included it in the article. Though, that says more about Garratt as an editor, than it does anything else.

Anyway, that's what I've found in poking about, and I thank you for the opportunity to add a little more to my knowledge of classic toy soldiers.

Prost!
Brad
 
Some followup info...

I agree that this horse is the Timpo horse, based on photos from eBay auctions. Here are a couple of photos from an eBay auction for Her Majesty, Winston, and an original box:





The seller has identified this as the Timpo piece. Note that the horse has the additional rein from the snaffle or the bit leading back under the saddle, which John's horse also has.

Here are photos from the auction listed in the earlier post. That auction identifies the figure as Noble:





Note that the horse is missing that additional rein. It doesn't appear to have been broken off, but rather, it was never part of the casting.

Now, here's another interesting item-another figure of the Queen, trooping the colors, identified as a Benbros piece:





Note that this horse, too, is missing that additional rein. (Britain chose to exclude that detail, too, with their figure of the Queen trooping the color.)

We can also see that Timpo and Benbros apparently used the same image of the Queen, from A. Vivian Mantell & Co., on their boxes. I expect it was a common and popular postcard image from the early years of her reign. I wouldn't be surprised to find that if Noble boxed their figure-and why wouldn't they?-they would have used the same image, too.

As far as Noble goes as a manufacturer, I did find this brief article in Garratt's "World Encyclopedia of Model Soldiers":


NOBLE, London (c. 1960) A small firm making 54mm hollow-casts with a small output. A European with an Arab guide, akin to Crescent, marked NOBLE diagonally on top of base, is known. [Coutts/Juplin]"

That helps us confirm our educated guess about the time period, and also a relative rarity compared to other known makers of hollowcast toy soldiers. Garratt's article is a secondary source of a sort, since he apparently got it from Coutts and Juplin (was that a typo, and he meant Norman?). It's interesting that the article discusses a "European with an Arab guide", rather than to mention the figure of the Queen. I'd have thought that piece to be significant enough to have included it in the article. Though, that says more about Garratt as an editor, than it does anything else.

Anyway, that's what I've found in poking about, and I thank you for the opportunity to add a little more to my knowledge of classic toy soldiers.

Prost!
Brad

Cheers Brad, that just about wraps it up. That's our Queen on "Winston" by Timpo. Interestingly, Winston was ridden by her father, King George VI, before her. The Queen also actually rode him at the Trooping of the Colour, from 1949-1951 - when she was Princess Elizabeth, and preferred riding him to any other of the horses available.

The info on the Noble brand seems very sparse.

Thanks for all the input guys - I now know a lot more about the horse. jb
 
And here's how Winston turned out. Sadly, without his rider, H.M The Queen, at the moment - but I have also added in another Britains version from my collection, which does have her riding a black horse. (No. 7232).

Winston's rider will be on my wants list from now on............jb

Pics attached.

PIC_4848.JPGPIC_4849.JPGPIC_4850.JPG
 
Hi Brad,

thanks for that info on Winston. Useful for my own 'lil project.

Hi JB,

Hold your horse. I've got to rush out my own QE on Winnie...:)

Rgds Vic
 
Hi Brad,

thanks for that info on Winston. Useful for my own 'lil project.

Hi JB,

Hold your horse. I've got to rush out my own QE on Winnie...:)

Rgds Vic

That will be good to see, I'll keep an eye out for it...............and IF you should ever come across an extra Timpo QEII in need of a bit of TLC ....... you know where to come for a very grateful pal .......:salute:: jb
 

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